Production Boats and the Limits - Page 228 - SailNet Community
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post #2271 of 5353 Old 10-21-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Now I totally agree with you on the artificial turf thing. That's just stupid.

PS - On that Oyster cleat location, weren't you and Minne furious that one would have to reach the one on the Hunter from the stern platform - or worse under the perch seats? Oyster seems to like the idea too.
Uhhh, if I hated those clamshell cleats on a Trintella, I imagine I'd hate them just as much on an Oyster... ;-)

And, yes, their placement appears to be rather awkward, as well - though it still pales in comparison to the stupidity exhibited on that Hunter... Not sure where you're getting the idea that I endorse every single thing a higher-end builder like Oyster does, either...
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post #2272 of 5353 Old 10-21-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You might have said - but I certainly don't think it's true - especially in this case. Hinckley is not going to move in a direction this significant to its brand and bottom line without making sure it's a good decision. You make it sound like this 50 is a lark. I don't think so. I just think you're holding on to yesteryear a bit to tightly.
Not a lark, but you have also changed the discussion to a different cleat. I think the pop ups are probably OK for someone who wants to do maintenance on them. I'm not hanging onto yesteryear- I just like simple and durable, and, as I said, I'm pretty fing good at not stepping on crap I shouldn't.
Again, however, these are not the cleats that started this discussion. How about quitting the Jedi mind tricks ("these are not the cleats you are looking for") and go back to those horribly stupid, vertically mounted POS that started this. Find them on a Hinkley or a Morris and then you've got a case. Otherwise, admit defeat.

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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
your engineering analysis is flawed. you are only looking at the top of the Seasmart cleat. when mounted properly the cleats bollards extend below the deck and increase the resistance to a side load which will far exceed the four bolt model which is held in by smallish countersunk head machine screws. In actuality either of these cleats will work as intended if the deck is designed properly for the mounting of the corresponding cleat.
Thanks, that's something I had not considered...

However, to obtain the maximum degree of additional resistance to side loading the bollard might afford, the cleat would have to be mounted into a solid material of a thickness approaching the depth of the bollards, correct? Depending on the size of the cleat, we might be talking about a laminate or similar solid structure 2-3" thick, perhaps? Otherwise, if those bollards are simply 'floating in air' below whatever backing material the mounting bolts are fixed through, their additional depth is not gonna provide much in the way of additional strength, right?

While I would trust a builder like Hinckley to go to that extent, can't say as I'd assume a builder like Bavaria, or Hunter, to do the same...

;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by overbored View Post
So far the Seasmart cleat has performed far better then the old simple cleats for us. we have never gotten a spinnaker sheet or any other line caught on the cleat unless we wanted it to.
Me neither... :-)

Even with teak as expensive as it is these days, this simple solution works fine for me, and I probably come out about $500 ahead of the SeaSmart solution, in the end...





Quote:
Originally Posted by overbored View Post
they have held the boat to the slip or dock when needed. To us docking is something we only do when we can't stay out sailing. That is why we bought a sailboat. if I wanted a docking boat I would get a steel tugboat.
Well, that's nice, but I'd have to say that such a mindset is in the minority among owners of larger boats, these days... I'm pretty sure the market research of production builders like Catalina and Hunter would indicate that most of their larger boat buyers keep their boats in marinas, and actually dock their boats regularly... Hell, it's somewhat rare for me to run a late model boat not equipped with a bow thruster these days, and I doubt most end users are primarily using them while underway...

Although, I have heard a certain Beige-colored Brand can sometimes benefit from a heavy dose of thruster, to bring the bow thru a tack in a breeze less than 10 knots...

;-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 10-21-2015 at 09:06 PM.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I agree with everything you say. But I also noticed something in this picture beyond the anti-snagging device:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post


;-)
And that is the round thing on the ventilated toe rail. What is it and what is its purpose? And so you use the black pieces of line to hold it in place? Tell us more, please!

(actually, I have an inkling that it has to do with chafe reduction but I don't want to speculate)
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I don't understand your point. That has nothing to do with old versus new, cheap versus expensive materials, but with a boat being well designed or not. Almost all modern mass production boats are very well designed (by the best NA) and the middle cleats are where they are supposed to be. I have no doubt that Farr, Finot or Marc Lombard now exactly were the cleats should be positioned to be effective.
Well, if by "effective" you mean that they will pull the bow sharply into the dock as soon as a strain is taken on an aft spring line, I would have to agree...

;-)

Paulo, you obviously are way more familiar with European boats than I am... Most of my deliveries here on this side of the pond involve American or Asian-built boats. And, all I can say, speaking from my experience, that for the purpose of using a spring line to come alongside a dock when being blown off by a breeze, or a side-setting current, the placement of midship cleats is rarely ideal, it is almost always too far forward...

Since I do so much singlehanded sailing, this is important to me... I'm often coming into places late at night, having to fend for myself, etc.... After I manage to toss a loop on a dock cleat or piling, then jump back to the helm, I don't want to have to apply a massive amount of opposite rudder to counteract the bow being pulled in sharply as soon as I start to power ahead on the spring... IN MY OPINION, on boats where a single midship cleat is used, it should be placed at a point where a relatively neutral rudder position can be maintained to keep the boat parallel to the dock while powering forward to ease the boat alongside...

Now, that's just me... Perhaps others don't mind their boats becoming skewed while attempting to perform this sort of maneuver... ;-)

You may be right, perhaps the Euros tend to get this better, though I'm not so sure about that... But I will admit that I was pleasantly surprised this summer, when I ran a Beneteau Oceanis 34 down to Florida... Turned out the midship cleat placement was close to ideal, right around Station 6, perhaps a bit further aft...





That boat was a pleasure to handle around the dock, and the use of an aft spring worked fine...

Which was fortunate, since the designer and builder - in their infinite wisdom - chose to leave any sort of rubrail whatsoever off that slab-sided hull...

;-)

As a result, it was either floating docks, or only fixed piers with the cleanest, most well-padded pilings, that were in play on that trip..
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
I agree with everything you say. But I also noticed something in this picture beyond the anti-snagging device:



And that is the round thing on the ventilated toe rail. What is it and what is its purpose? And so you use the black pieces of line to hold it in place? Tell us more, please!

(actually, I have an inkling that it has to do with chafe reduction but I don't want to speculate)
You're right, it's to guard against chafe... those aluminum "Canadian Picket Fences" pioneered by C&C can be surprisingly rough on rope... Especially, when they're 45 years old... ;-)

That's just a length of electrical conduit material, with about a 3/8" wide slit cut the length of it... A bit smaller than the diameter of the top 'bead' of the toerail, it simply snaps into place, and the light lines prevent it from migrating out of position...

I don't have chocks on my foredeck, so I have a shorter set that gets used up there, as well...

Now, if I were sailing a Hinckley, I'd have to figure out some way to cover them with elkhide... But, that can wait...

;-)
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You're right, it's to guard against chafe... those aluminum "Canadian Picket Fences" pioneered by C&C can be surprisingly rough on rope... Especially, when they're 45 years old... ;-)

That's just a length of electrical conduit material, with about a 3/8" wide slit cut the length of it... A bit smaller than the diameter of the top 'bead' of the toerail, it simply snaps into place, and the light lines prevent it from migrating out of position...

I don't have chocks on my foredeck, so I have a shorter set that gets used up there, as well...

Now, if I were sailing a Hinckley, I'd have to figure out some way to cover them with elkhide... But, that can wait...

;-)
Elkhide! That's a good one!

Nice solution, thanks!
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Since I do so much singlehanded sailing, this is important to me... I'm often coming into places late at night, having to fend for myself, etc.... After I manage to toss a loop on a dock cleat or piling, then jump back to the helm, I don't want to have to apply a massive amount of opposite rudder to counteract the bow being pulled in sharply as soon as I start to power ahead on the spring... IN MY OPINION, on boats where a single midship cleat is used, it should be placed at a point where a relatively neutral rudder position can be maintained to keep the boat parallel to the dock while powering forward to ease the boat alongside...

Now, that's just me... Perhaps others don't mind their boats becoming skewed while attempting to perform this sort of maneuver... ;-)
Jon, maybe I'm missing something, but why use a midships cleat for this at all? Any reason you don't simply throw the other end of your dock-loop around the jib sheet winch and control it from inside the cockpit??

Depends on the boat I suppose, but I do find a heavy-weight full-keeler doesn't pull in sharply like that.. unless I've applied far too much throttle. ;-)

Lead-foot.. ...

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Last edited by Classic30; 10-22-2015 at 02:02 AM.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
......on boats where a single midship cleat is used, it should be placed at a point where a relatively neutral rudder position can be maintained to keep the boat parallel to the dock while powering forward to ease the boat alongside.......
What if you had to back into the slip with a forward spring?


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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
......Any reason you don't simply throw the other end of your dock-loop around the jib sheet winch and control it from inside the cockpit??.....
I've always been told that winches are not designed to be cleats. Knowing the loads they carry, I've been suspicious of that. However, if you look up your winch's specification, they do give a range of angles that the lines are intended to exit the drum. Running a dockline could be outside that range. I'm not certain if that range is due to design leverage limitations or if exceeding it would only cause overrides or a tailer to malfunction.


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