Production Boats and the Limits - Page 294 - SailNet Community
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post #2931 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Paulo, you do realize the Sense 50 has a PHRF rating of 90 don't you? That's barbarically slow for a NEW fifty footer. Hell, a 25 year old Baltic 50 rates 45.
I fail to understand the connection. The Baltic 50 that rates 45 is this one;


It is not a main market cruiser but a cruiser-racer and it is not 25 years old but a 17 years old. The sense 50 is a 5 year old design and we were talking about the Sense 55 a three year old design.



With a difference of design of 12 years and taking into consideration that one is a top racer-cruiser and the other is a very spacious and comfortable main market sailboat I don't see what that difference has of extraordinaire.

Has you know the PHRF varies greatly with the draft of the boat. The same boat with different drafts have considerable different ratings. The Sense 50 can have a draft of 1.75 or 2.10m, the Baltic 50 has a draft of 3.3m. Put that draft on the Sense and we will see the PHRF go down.

The Sense series are more luxurious and more heavy then the Oceanis series of Beneteau and slightly slower, but even so a sailing boat with a good sailing performance.

Maybe your idea was to compare the Sense 50 with a boat of the same category (main market) but older 25 years in design? That would be a boat designed in 1985. Be my guest and suggest one, maybe this one, with a design only two years older than that difference but bigger one ft?

Or this one, also a 50ft boat but with a much smaller difference on the age of the design. Only 13 years separate the design of this one from the design of the Sense 50:

As you can see here a Sense 50 sails quite well but only an American would have the idea of racing a Sense 50 (where do you get that PHRF?):






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post #2932 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Read it. Have also read your SAIL write ups on my boat and several others on the CCA era (Rob Mazza has some multiparters in GOB as well that have added some to it). When I was looking at boats I spent tons of time crawling all over various boats. I thought about taking out a loan for a new Hunter. Looked at Catalinas (grew up on one, after all), looked at Bristols, Cals, Columbias, a very poorly taken care of T37, a Cabo Rico 38 I couldn't afford without a loan, a J boat, a Bene, and a Jene. Probably a bunch I've forgotten. Almost bought a Pearson 30 (deal didn't feel right). Almost bought a Bristol 30 (guy wouldn't budge on the price). Looked at a Swedish IOR design that looked and sailed FAST, but damn uncomfortable and touchy, with a lot of pressure on the rudder. Paulo probably would have loved it except it wasn't fat enough in the aft. Ended up with mine. But not until I read a crudload on CCA designs and the racing rules and how they sailed and behaved. Some of it was written by Jeff- usually how crappy they are and that they should all be put on the bottom compared to the new stuff, but he has his reasons, and that's not really what he says, just my interpretation of the overarching theme that shines through in his opinions of them, and he's certainly tempered that a bit over the years.
She needed a bunch of cosmetic work, but was otherwise very sound and I've been pretty happy with her over the last 5 years. Is she perfect? No way, but I bought her straight out in cash, she takes care of me and was in good enough shape that I could make her closer to perfect over the years. The HAVE to do list was short and cheap, and the NICE to do list is ever growing as something else annoys me or I look at it and say "hmm- wonder when that was replaced?".
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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That is not about being trendy. The word trendy can only be applied to non sailing functional parts of the boat and in what regards the cabin you are right. Nothing wrong in choosing a traditional look.

But in what regards the hull the word trendy cannot be applied anymore since it is a functional sailing part and in what regards that the question is if it is to the state of the art or not in what regards sailing efficiency.

And in what regards that that boat could be easily designed 20 or 30 years ago. The only real modern thing is a spade rudder that is just a small detail on a old designed hull far away from the state of the art.
Wow.

Its becoming increasingly impossible to ignore the fact that you simply do not know what you are talking about. You keep rattling off the same nonsense, despite getting schooled by the more knowledgeable all around you. None of it sinks in. You continue to compare computers to boats, for crying out loud. Moore's Law applies when talking about silicon buried inside a piece of consumer electronics...where raw performance literally is the entire consideration: Is it faster or is it not?

Boats on the other hand, are far more complicated. Most people buy them on the basis of aesthetics, bragging rights, and dockside appeal. Performance is secondary. Seaworthiness comes last, it would seem.

How long are you going to keep this up?
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I guess you should change of brand: I don't know in Europe of any similar model built today that has not a considerable better millage then the similar 13 year old model.

Manufacturers have been concentrating hard on that point and the improvements on that area have been big. In many countries tax on cars depend on CO2 emission and that depends of the car consumption. That's why they have worked on that a lot: less tax means a car cheaper then the rival that pays more taxes because it wastes more fuel.
Wow, European cars. What a great example! Don't get me started about this wonder of contemporary European engineering!

Your European car manufacturer has made great efforts to reduce the CO2 emissions on its contemporary design. And made tons of money by selling the cars based on the tax advantages you mention.

Improvements have, indeed, been big. Problem is the progress was in finding even more pernicious ways for cheating on emissions tests. They have been concentrating hard on hiding that the 'modern clean diesel' spews out more than 40 times the allowed maximum of NOx. So one dude driving in his euro-chic car generates more nitrous oxides than a 40 ton truck in this country, after being told that his 'clean diesel' is actually eco-friendly. And all this from the ultra-ecological Germans, that don't miss an opportunity to lecture the world about pollution. Turns out they care sh*t about the environment and whether they are literally killing people, as long as they can make a buck.

And when they were caught in their deceit, for more than a year they condescendingly told the regulators that they were wrong. "You don't know what you are talking about, we know better, we are the largest car company in Europe, no, the world!" But you have to give it to them, they always had great commercials. At last year's Superbowl their motto was "Truth in engineering." You could not make that up!

They are fouling the air that we, and our children have to breath. I hope they get the largest fine allowable under the law and are made to buy back all the sickening cars that they sold with their fraudulent methods. Oh, wait, they have a plan for that too: Volkswagen actually suggested itself to buy back the illegal cars in Germany (which are even MORE polluting than those in the US because European pollution rules are much less rigorous). But not to shred them, or to fix them: instead, the plan is to sell them to Turkey, or Africa (or maybe Portugal?), any place where regulations are even less strict than in Germany. Nevermind they will foul the air there and literally kill people. It is good enough for the people there, they are just untermenschen.

European contemporary technology, my foot. See, you got me started.
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Last edited by MastUndSchotbruch; 10-30-2015 at 05:17 PM.
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post #2935 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Wrong Baltic Paolo, that one rates negative.

Admit it, the Sense 50 is a slow, glass covered, pizza boat. The rating of the Sense 50 is closer to Bob's Valent 40. ?

But it's new...????
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Wow, European cars. What a great example! Don't get me started about this wonder of contemporary European engineering!

Your European car manufacturer has made great efforts to reduce the CO2 emissions on its contemporary design. And made tons of money by selling the cars based on the tax advantages you mention.
...
What that has to do with it? I only said to a guy that if the 12 year new model of his old car wasted the same fuel as the old one he should change of brand. I did not even looked at what car he was talking about.

And it seems obvious to me: What is the same model of car that wastes today more fuel then 12 years ago?, not a VW certainly even with all the **** that they have been making in what regards emission control.





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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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You mean that they will survive for eternity? That was what I meant, all boats and cars of today will one day be on a junkyard, except the ones with historical value and those will cost a fortune to maintain and preserve.

Never talk about a time period.

You seem to have a knack for contesting the obvious

.... and it was pretty damn obvious that is what you meant.

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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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What that has to do with it? I only said to a guy that if the 12 year new model of his old car wasted the same fuel as the old one he should change of brand. I did not even looked at what car he was talking about.

And it seems obvious to me: What is the same model of car that wastes today more fuel then 12 years ago?, not a VW certainly even with all the **** that they have been making in what regards emission control.
Of course...this depends entirely on fuel economy being the primary consideration.

Which is an ignorant assumption on your part. Again.

VW has always been a mediocre car in quality terms, it should be pointed out.

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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Paulo, have you raced? One design, IOR, RORC, IMS... bouy racing, distance racing. Trying to understand where you are coming from, what about new and shiny leads you to better?
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I fail to understand the connection. The Baltic 50 that rates 45 is this one;


It is not a main market cruiser but a cruiser-racer and it is not 25 years old but a 17 years old. The sense 50 is a 5 year old design and we were talking about the Sense 55 a three year old design.



With a difference of design of 12 years and taking into consideration that one is a top racer-cruiser and the other is a very spacious and comfortable main market sailboat I don't see what that difference has of extraordinaire.

Has you know the PHRF varies greatly with the draft of the boat. The same boat with different drafts have considerable different ratings. The Sense 50 can have a draft of 1.75 or 2.10m, the Baltic 50 has a draft of 3.3m. Put that draft on the Sense and we will see the PHRF go down.

The Sense series are more luxurious and more heavy then the Oceanis series of Beneteau and slightly slower, but even so a sailing boat with a good sailing performance.

Maybe your idea was to compare the Sense 50 with a boat of the same category (main market) but older 25 years in design? That would be a boat designed in 1985. Be my guest and suggest one, maybe this one, with a design only two years older than that difference but bigger one ft?

Or this one, also a 50ft boat but with a much smaller difference on the age of the design. Only 13 years separate the design of this one from the design of the Sense 50:

As you can see here a Sense 50 sails quite well but only an American would have the idea of racing a Sense 50 (where do you get that PHRF?):
How about the Beneteau Oceanus 500 from 1988? Its PHRF is 75, and has a draft of 1.8m.
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