Production Boats and the Limits - Page 297 - SailNet Community
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post #2961 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Paulo, did your race? Any class? Just curious, trying to know where you come from and why you think what you think.

It's ok if you like and want new boats, there's lots of appeal for that but you can't say it's better only because it's new. There are too many good older boats out there for that blanket statements. There are too many traditional designs being designed and built today to discount them.

I look at it this way:
Displacement boats
Planning boats
Multihulls

Most displacement boats are equal in speed, regardless of age.
Planning monos are plenty quick but would but tough to cruise cause you have to carry stuff and sailing faster then 10 knots is uncomfortable.
Multis run the gamut, they can be wicked quick and wicked uncomfortable or extremely comfortable and very slow.

And yes, I was surprised by how slow the Sense 50 was but it's probably a great cocktail cruiser.
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post #2962 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Nice Poem!
The best post yet! Real clarity for us GOB guys...
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Nicely crafted Sky.


Shocker:
Having been on some PHRF committees there was a time when we had to draw that line between displ boats and planing boats. It came down to D/L's. This first came up when the Aphrodite 101's first 12 boats came to Seattle. They were "different" and tough to rate. To put things into perspective,we finally decided to draw the line at a D/L of 150 which at the time we considered very light. How times change. But that argument still rages on. It's hard to establish a line between the "light" boats and the "not light" boats. The definitions won't stand still.

I can't remember a time when Seattle was not sing some form of PHRF. I can't recall what we called it in the early days. I have a PM out to one of my cronys for some historical data. I think out name was dropped when we merged with the Californian fleet rating system.

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post #2964 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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I don't envy the PHRF guys Bob. Tough to rate boats fairly when the performance envelopes very so widely. One number for all conditions? Ha, that'll make you drink.
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post #2965 of 5353 Old 10-30-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
I got my numbers from here:

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...aps%20Data.pdf

And SA/D is only part of the picture - as an example, the Sense probably has a fair bit more wetted surface than the Oceanus 500.
Yes, I agree with you and I had found out that information too (see post above). I guess that between those two it will depend on the boat configuration and on the point of sail. Probably the Sense can carry a bigger asymmetric downwind and will be faster there and in stronger winds and probably the Oceanis 500 will be faster upwind and I would not be surprised if in weak winds,

Anyway no doubt the Oceanis 500 is a more sportive design than the Sense 50 and a great design also.





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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Shock:
Yeah, we had a major shake up here in the big boat class two years ago. It left some owners very upset. One put his boat up for sale. It was my design. He got hammered with a new rating. It has hastened the move to IRC or a lot of the owners. I've been racing on FRANCIS LEE and we have been happy with our rating.

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post #2967 of 5353 Old 10-31-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Blah, blah, blah, I really do not understand the point at all.

"Anyway the PHRF can be very different between two sailboats depending not only on the draft of the keel but also on the sails."

Really? Is that how it works? That is really simple. I thought it was a little more complex than that. But what would I know? I have only been working with PHRF for over 40 years. I have even been on PHRF committees.
That is typical of you: Do you disagree with anything I have said? Off course not, the PHRF regarding boats from the same model can be very different due to different sails and different draft.

Did you add something more? No!

What was the finality of that post? None!

Anyway the PHRF is a lot simpler and far from the accuracy of the IRC or the ORC. I like particularly ORCI that has been increasing its importance in Europe and that take into account a huge amount of information in what regards rating a boat and include not only a differentiation in rating between Inshore (windward-leeward) or Offshore races and also a triple rating with 3 different time on time coefficients to be used in light, medium and heavy breezes.

For the ones that want to have a look here is a file;

Google for: "ORC international certificate XP 44" and download the PDF





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Paulo, do you race?
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

PCP:
You don't know enough about PHRF to lecture me on it.


But we can have some real boat fun:
Let's have a little challenge. How about you guess the PHRF rating of FRANCIS LEE. You know the boat. It can't be that hard. I see you did not guess on the limit of positive stability contest. I didn't think you would I presumed you would have no clue.

Come on PCP let's see how much you really know about PHRF. I'll give you any dimensions you need. This could be fun. Should be easy for a PHRF expert like you.
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Last edited by bobperry; 10-31-2015 at 12:06 PM.
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post #2970 of 5353 Old 10-31-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
,,,
It's ok if you like and want new boats, there's lots of appeal for that but you can't say it's better only because it's new. There are too many good older boats out there for that blanket statements. There are too many traditional designs being designed and built today to discount them.

I look at it this way:
Displacement boats
Planning boats
Multihulls

Most displacement boats are equal in speed, regardless of age.
Planning monos are plenty quick but would but tough to cruise cause you have to carry stuff and sailing faster then 10 knots is uncomfortable.
......

And yes, I was surprised by how slow the Sense 50 was but it's probably a great cocktail cruiser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Nicely crafted Sky.


Shocker:
Having been on some PHRF committees there was a time when we had to draw that line between displ boats and planing boats. It came down to D/L's. This first came up when the Aphrodite 101's first 12 boats came to Seattle. They were "different" and tough to rate. To put things into perspective,we finally decided to draw the line at a D/L of 150 which at the time we considered very light. How times change. But that argument still rages on. It's hard to establish a line between the "light" boats and the "not light" boats. The definitions won't stand still.
....
Well, Bob replied telling you are wrong but I bet you did not have understood neither the majority of the ones on this thread.

He seems to agree to you in what regards the division regarding the speed of identical length sailboats (modern or old designed) only having to do with them be planing boats or not and then he says that planing boats are the ones with a D/L of 150 LOL.

I guess you did not have understood the joke, I explain it to you: according to Bob a Sense 55 is very clearly a planing boat with a D/L of 128 and the Sense 50 is a borderline boat with a D/L of 153.

Off course it does not make any sense to call to a Sense 55 a planing boat but that is another story. What matters here is that Bob is contradicting you in a way you or many here are not able to understand clearly.

What Bob is saying is that old designed cruising sailboat are significantly slower than modern designs.

Practically all modern main market mass production cruisers have a SA/D around or less than 150 (they are all planing boats LOL).

Note that a modern main market design is not necessarily a boat designed in the present but a cruising boat that is light, has a fin keel and a spade rudder (or close to it in what regards efficiency). Slap showed that on the end of the 80's there were already some very advanced cruising designs that fit on that category. An old cruising design is a boat with a full or modified fin keel, with a big rudder and a heavy boat by modern standards. A boat with a big wet area.

Just a review in what regards the more popular main market mass production 50fters actually on the market and their D/L:

Jeanneau 509-D/L 144....Beneteau Oceanis 55 D/L-134....Bavaria 50 cruiser D/L-132....Hanse 505 D/L-119...Hunter 50- D/L 156

Now compare this with main market old design 50ft sailboats of different vintages:

Valiant 50 D/L 243...Passport 50 D/L 256...Tayana 52 D/L 231...Tatoosh 51 D/L 264....

To this difference in D/L (and other factors like SA/D) corresponds, on boats with a same LOA, a huge differences in performance, contradicting what you say.

You say you are surprised with the poor sail performance of the Sense 50 that has a PHRF of 84, on his swallow draft version (and that should have about 75 on the standard keel version).

Yes I agree that among the other mass production 50fters the Sense 50 is not particularly fast and the Sense 55, a newer boat, is proportionally faster and will have a lower PHRF, but compared with the boats I was comparing it, old designed boats, the Sense 50 it is a rocket.

I guess you should be very surprised with that since it contradicts strongly your opinion "Most displacement boats are equal in speed, regardless of age."

Even considering the higher PHRF of the swallow draft version of the Sense 50, it has a 80 PHRF and that shows that it is incomparably faster than old designed boats with the same LOA: Tatoosh 51 (PHRF 120), Tayana 52SD (111/120), Valiant 50 (PHRF 102/105), Roberts 53 (PHRF 126), Mason 53 (PHRF 132/138), Mason 63 (PHRF 168), HINCKLEY SW 50 (120), Gulfstar 50 (PHRF 126/132).

Why are you not surprised?

That surprise should be even more evident if we look at some of the PHRF of those 50ft main market mass production boats actually on the market:

For instance Beneteau Oceanis 50 (PHRF 75), Hanse 470 (PHRF 39), Hanse 540 (PHRF 12/27), Jeanneau 509 (PHRF45).

In fact regarding those heavy old designed boats an old 50 fter has a worse (or equal) sailing performance than a modern mass production 37/38fter like a Jeanneau 376 (PHRF 90/108), Hanse 370 (PHRF 90/105) a Beneteau Oceanis 37 (111/114) or a Bavaria 38 (93/108).

All these 37/38ft boats are main market mass production boats and none of them is a cruiser-racer and it would be ridiculous to call to any of them planing boats.

There are not many cruising planing boats but there are some like the Pogo 12.50 the 50, the new Django 9.60, The Malango 10.45, boats that have a D/L incomparably inferior to 150.

The Pogo 50 has a D/L around 71 and the Django 9.60 a 96 D/L (and a SA/D of 29). Regarding these cruisers, that are based on Ocean solo racers, a Pogo 12.50 would be much faster than any 50ft modern mass production main market boat and in what regards PHRF it would have probably a negative one.





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Last edited by PCP; 10-31-2015 at 02:54 PM.
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