It's ok if you like and want new boats, there's lots of appeal for that but you can't say it's better only because it's new. There are too many good older boats out there for that blanket statements. There are too many traditional designs being designed and built today to discount them.
I look at it this way:
Most displacement boats are equal in speed, regardless of age.
Planning monos are plenty quick but would but tough to cruise cause you have to carry stuff and sailing faster then 10 knots is uncomfortable.
And yes, I was surprised by how slow the Sense 50 was but it's probably a great cocktail cruiser.
Nicely crafted Sky.
Having been on some PHRF committees there was a time when we had to draw that line between displ boats and planing boats. It came down to D/L's. This first came up when the Aphrodite 101's first 12 boats came to Seattle. They were "different" and tough to rate. To put things into perspective,we finally decided to draw the line at a D/L of 150 which at the time we considered very light. How times change. But that argument still rages on. It's hard to establish a line between the "light" boats and the "not light" boats. The definitions won't stand still.
Well, Bob replied telling you are wrong but I bet you did not have understood neither the majority of the ones on this thread.
He seems to agree to you in what regards the division regarding the speed of identical length sailboats (modern or old designed) only having to do with them be planing boats or not and then he says that planing boats are the ones with a D/L of 150 LOL.
I guess you did not have understood the joke, I explain it to you: according to Bob a Sense 55 is very clearly a planing boat with a D/L of 128 and the Sense 50 is a borderline boat with a D/L of 153.
Off course it does not make any sense to call to a Sense 55 a planing boat but that is another story. What matters here is that Bob is contradicting you in a way you or many here are not able to understand clearly.
What Bob is saying is that old designed cruising sailboat are significantly slower than modern designs
Practically all modern main market mass production cruisers have a SA/D around or less than 150 (they are all planing boats LOL).
Note that a modern main market design is not necessarily a boat designed in the present but a cruising boat that is light, has a fin keel and a spade rudder (or close to it in what regards efficiency). Slap showed that on the end of the 80's there were already some very advanced cruising designs that fit on that category. An old cruising design is a boat with a full or modified fin keel, with a big rudder and a heavy boat by modern standards. A boat with a big wet area.
Just a review in what regards the more popular main market mass production 50fters actually on the market and their D/L:
Jeanneau 509-D/L 144
....Beneteau Oceanis 55 D/L-134
....Bavaria 50 cruiser D/L-132....Hanse 505 D/L-119.
..Hunter 50- D/L 156
Now compare this with main market old design 50ft sailboats of different vintages:
Valiant 50 D/L 243
...Passport 50 D/L 256
...Tayana 52 D/L 231
...Tatoosh 51 D/L 264
To this difference in D/L (and other factors like SA/D) corresponds, on boats with a same LOA, a huge differences in performance, contradicting what you say.
You say you are surprised with the poor sail performance of the Sense 50 that has a PHRF of 84
, on his swallow draft version (and that should have about 75 on the standard keel version).
Yes I agree that among the other mass production 50fters the Sense 50 is not particularly fast and the Sense 55, a newer boat, is proportionally faster and will have a lower PHRF, but compared with the boats I was comparing it, old designed boats, the Sense 50 it is a rocket.
I guess you should be very surprised with that since it contradicts strongly your opinion "Most displacement boats are equal in speed, regardless of age.
Even considering the higher PHRF of the swallow draft version of the Sense 50, it has a 80 PHRF and that shows that it is incomparably faster than old designed boats with the same LOA: Tatoosh 51 (PHRF 120
), Tayana 52SD (111/120
), Valiant 50 (PHRF 102/105
), Roberts 53 (PHRF 126
), Mason 53 (PHRF 132/138
), Mason 63 (PHRF 168
), HINCKLEY SW 50 (120
), Gulfstar 50 (PHRF 126/132
Why are you not surprised?
That surprise should be even more evident if we look at some of the PHRF of those 50ft main market mass production boats actually on the market:
For instance Beneteau Oceanis 50 (PHRF 75
), Hanse 470 (PHRF 39
), Hanse 540 (PHRF 12/27
), Jeanneau 509 (PHRF45
In fact regarding those heavy old designed boats an old 50 fter has a worse (or equal) sailing performance than a modern mass production 37/38fter like a Jeanneau 376 (PHRF 90/108), Hanse 370 (PHRF 90/105) a Beneteau Oceanis 37 (111/114) or a Bavaria 38 (93/108).
All these 37/38ft boats are main market mass production boats and none of them is a cruiser-racer and it would be ridiculous to call to any of them planing boats.
There are not many cruising planing boats
but there are some like the Pogo 12.50 the 50, the new Django 9.60, The Malango 10.45, boats that have a D/L incomparably inferior to 150.
The Pogo 50 has a D/L around 71
and the Django 9.60 a 96 D/L
(and a SA/D of 29). Regarding these cruisers, that are based on Ocean solo racers, a Pogo 12.50 would be much faster than any 50ft modern mass production main market boat and in what regards PHRF it would have probably a negative one.