Production Boats and the Limits - Page 311 - SailNet Community
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post #3101 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It seems to me that it is you that is confused:

You mean the Saga 43 a very popular production boat and sold 55 boats till it go bankrupt some 10 years later or so? That does not seem to me the definition of a very popular sailboat. Don't you think that if they went bankrupt was because there was not a number enough of sailors interested on that boat?
Well, Jeanneau almost went under in 1995 - a bankruptcy court handled the sale to Group Beneteau. Or how about Dehler? - went under and then bought by Hanse. Heck, there are plenty of rumours around about Beneteau's river of red ink.
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post #3102 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Don't you think that if they went bankrupt was because there was not a number enough of sailors interested on that boat?


Apparently you have never heard of bad management.

There's always been a lot of it in the boatbuilding business - kind of like restaurants - everyone who likes eating good food thinks they can run a restaurant and everyone who likes working on boats thinks they can run a boatyard.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #3103 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Bob's McDonalds reference is right on point AFAIAC - name anything that satisfies mass market tastes and is also the "best".

The mass market buys what marketing departments tell them is the newest and best.

Paulo has swallowed that particular hook so deeply it's snagged on his colon.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #3104 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I find a lot of 70-80's boat interiors just as ugly as that 70's living room.
Don... agree with what you say here... if the interiors and layout of these 70-80's or for that matter 50'-60's boats were so popular why are they not in the existing 'new' boats being shown at the boat shows?

The reason they are not is because 'tastes' have changed and NA/Designers of these new boats know the target they are after...

Bob and other boat designers design products whose customers lean towards those tastes... but they're not mine or others and our opinions matter as much as those that oppress the newer designs as being worthless because they are designed more efficiently or using the latest design technologies (Ikea interiors, latest cleat gizmos, boom furling, etc.).

I love our Hunter and have since upgraded the entire interior to rid the mid 80's look and now has the look of a 2010-2015 interior with all LED's, non alcohol stove, electric head, ultraleather cushions, new teak floors, I want to change the glossy wood panels to satin finish later... we will keep our Hunter for the next several years while we decide the route for our next new boat but it will not be a 70's-90's boat that is for sure.... Who knows it might have the IKEA look to it already and be of 'contemporary' design...
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post #3105 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post

The mass market buys what marketing departments tell them is the newest and best.
I'm pretty sure the mass market buys mostly based on value (which isn't just price).

But there's always a market for high end stuff. People with money will always find a way to justify it, some even willing to just admit that it is because they can.

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post #3106 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I guess that it was typical mass American taste on the 70's but you should not confound that with what the best American Architects were designing at that time. It is not fair for them at all. Search for Charles Moore and California Ranch.
Paulo... That was my playboy pad in West Palm Beach after FSU... Many a good times spent there with friends and girlfriends.... At the time it was 'State of the Art' and the same can be said of homes designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.... but you won't see homes built that way today because 'tastes' have changed!
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
I'm pretty sure the mass market buys mostly based on value (which isn't just price).

But there's always a market for high end stuff. People with money will always find a way to justify it, some even willing to just admit that it is because they can.
And.... I bet 90% of products in Jon's home have been mass marketed to him as well and he bought line-hook-sinker as well...
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post #3108 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by slap View Post
Well, Jeanneau almost went under in 1995 - a bankruptcy court handled the sale to Group Beneteau. Or how about Dehler? - went under and then bought by Hanse. Heck, there are plenty of rumours around about Beneteau's river of red ink.
Jeanneau and Dehler went under due to bad management and the reason they were recovered was that the boats they built were boats sailors wanted (the market) and therefore with a good management it would be possible to make them solid and lucrative again.

They are solid and lucrative again doing great boats:









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post #3109 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by amwbox View Post
Anything that is produced in its own time is "state of the art",.
No, in fact most of the things that are produced today are not state of the art. If you don't know the meaning of the word look at the dictionary:

"The term "state of the art" refers to the highest level of general development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field achieved at a particular time"

Only the best that is produced at a given time can be considered "state of the art".





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post #3110 of 5353 Old 11-03-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by guitarguy56 View Post
Don... agree with what you say here... if the interiors and layout of these 70-80's or for that matter 50'-60's boats were so popular why are they not in the existing 'new' boats being shown at the boat shows?
Boats in the 1970s and 1980s were designed to the IOR rule. The IOR rule isn't relevant anymore.

Quote:
The reason they are not is because 'tastes' have changed and NA/Designers of these new boats know the target they are after...

Bob and other boat designers design products whose customers lean towards those tastes... but they're not mine or others and our opinions matter as much as those that oppress the newer designs as being worthless because they are designed more efficiently or using the latest design technologies (Ikea interiors, latest cleat gizmos, boom furling, etc.).
Boom furling? Don't you mean in mast furling? It's easy to understand why some don't like in mast furling - less sail area, less efficient sail shape, more weight high up, more chance of something going wrong (and harder to fix), sail needs to be replaced sooner, can't depower the sail by mast bend.
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