How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats. - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 97 Old 09-21-2016
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I'll bet you haven't looked at these records, but are instead relying on what sounds likely to you. In the same vein, if one looks at the records of successfully completed circumnavigations…the preponderance is for celestial navigation. In other words, both statements assume the past.

The reason I don't think your statement is true (nor mine) is that if you look at the World ARC and other types of rallies that have sent many, many boats RTW, you will find that most of them are not full keel, or even long keel, boats.

For every Pardey boat in the past, there are many new boats today.

Mark
You'll lose that bet if the present time was near the years 2000-2005 when I did my topical research when looking for a well built and well designed long distance cruising boat.
At that time there were several organizations, including Latitude38 (as a statistical sample), who published lists of circumnavigation by cruisers on a regional basis that showed names/dates/boat model, etc. These lists, at that time, were mostly in quasi-excel spreadsheet format or could easily be loaded into spreadsheet format for easy scrutiny and comparison of the data. When when that data was restricted ~1975-2005 that data showed the preponderance of full/long keeled boats; and, for 'american designed' boats - designed by Bob Perry, Bill Creighlock, Robt. Harris, etc.
I believe the Valiant40 (long fin) is still touted as one the most successful circumnavigating sailboats; and, quickly followed in 'numbers' by other variants of the essentially the same basic design.
These lists have somewhat disappeared from the internet; although all I can find now is 'more compact', yet less spreadsheet-friendly: Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List

Of course, the evolution to more efficient and stronger composite etc. construction has advanced the trend away from full/long keeled boats ... but that data doesn't seem to show even in the current (quite sparse) listings that are available.

Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List,
and one can use even this small amount of data as a statistical correlation. And too, one can look at that Yachtworld article posted previously and gain some preliminary statistical insight/trend of where 72 fin keels have fallen off in essential the same time period and where ~24 souls were lost.
As regards 'safety' and the current/recent historical record, I don't think you or anyone else can find a comparable data set over the same time frame of a proportional amount of full/long keelers having the same issues.

Ed./Add: the same argument can be carried by a simple rationalization of the loss of spade rudders vs. 'barn door'/skeg mounted rudders.

Last edited by RichH; 09-21-2016 at 11:57 AM.
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It was supposed to make people laugh, imagine my surprise when people took it seriously?

It was what turned out to be a rather poor commentary on arm chair sailors just talking out there rear ends, and repeating all the trash they have heard from marketing and yacht broker folks trying to make a quick sale.
Troll thread. Understood.

To be fair...this is one of the most common debates in the sailing world. Its entirely reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt. There was a canoe stern thread a bit back where someone literally commented that they wouldn't be caught dead offshore without a fat transom. Boats with canoe sterns are apparently unsafe. Ironically.

So...assumptions don't pay.
So, here is what my analytics are telling me. Of 1052 views I've had on this video, only 24 have been via my attached link on this thread.

That not only tells me, that many people, really are more focused on individual details of a boats design, such as your comment regarding canoe sterns, than on complete package, but also tells me, that with 30 some odd comments on this thread and only 24 views on the video, many people are skipping the actual content of the thread, and are just sharing their opinions in an unspecific manner.

Which is really an interesting learning experiment.
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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many people are skipping the actual content of the thread, and are just sharing their opinions in an unspecific manner.

Which is really an interesting learning experiment.
It really is fascinating isn't it?

Also, and this is not a bad or good thing, just a comment...I don't think I've seen a board membership so lacking in a sense of humour as this one.

Can we talk about your wheel?
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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It really is fascinating isn't it?

Also, and this is not a bad or good thing, just a comment...I don't think I've seen a board membership so lacking in a sense of humour as this one.

Can we talk about your wheel?
Ninefingers, you should know that exhibiting a sense of humor is in violation of Rule 12(D)(4) of the NETREGS, and doing so can potentially get you disqualified from your local internet. It goes without saying that there is no room for flexibility on this matter.

Arcb, I'm watching your review as I type — decided it would only be fitting since I was posting. I'm enjoying getting the tour (even though as a complete newbie a lot of it's over my head).
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9fingers,
As far as I know, it's a fairly standard wheel. Bronze hub, wood spokes and a stainless steel reinforcing ring around the outside, the reinforcing ring I wrapped with a turkshead (I think that's the right term) so I don't get cold hands.

There is a comnav 1101 autopilot, which speaks directly to my primary magnetic compass. The steering is via heavy duty ram, which not everybody likes (no feedback).

Emergency steering is via the 2" diameter stainless steel emergency tiller. The stock on the emergency tiller is about 3' high and the tiller itself is again, 2" stainless and about 6' long. The rudder is not attached directly to the keel but is skeg hung about 4' aft of the keel. Not only that, but the through hull for the rudder stock is above the water line, in case you some how lose the rudder.

I like the steering system, hydraulic steering is much maligned due to the lack of feed back, but I don't worry about ice around the rudder too much, and I will back the boat through mud if necessary with minimal concerns, I've grounded the rudder more than once, but no damage because its such heavy duty construction.
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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That not only tells me, that many people, really are more focused on individual details of a boats design, such as your comment regarding canoe sterns, than on complete package, but also tells me, that with 30 some odd comments on this thread and only 24 views on the video, many people are skipping the actual content of the thread, and are just sharing their opinions in an unspecific manner.

Which is really an interesting learning experiment.
Absolutely. Even in this very thread I see comments saying "full keels are slower". Funny comments - speed is related to LWL and SA/D, not keel style.

Ahhhh, the interwebs.....
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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Absolutely. Even in this very thread I see comments saying "full keels are slower". Funny comments - speed is related to LWL and SA/D, not keel style.

Ahhhh, the interwebs.....
No, what you see in this thread is the general trend that boats that happen to have full keels tend to be slower...not that they are slower because they have full keels.

Correlation is not causation.

That said, there is also a difference between hull speed, which is mostly a factor of LWL, and actual speed over a passage, which is far more complicated.

"Freedom is the increased knowledge of what you can do without." —Thoreau
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

Can you imagine if Hunter introduced a full keel boat? The intarwebs would break.
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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9fingers,
As far as I know, it's a fairly standard wheel. Bronze hub, wood spokes and a stainless steel reinforcing ring around the outside, the reinforcing ring I wrapped with a turkshead (I think that's the right term) so I don't get cold hands.
17:10 mark onwards a bit.

Btw, love your boat!, but the way you are twirling that thing, and the way it looks to be out of round, had me thinking it was a fakey wheel that you made for your kid to use. "What a dad" I thought.

Do you know how many revolutions it is lock to lock? Is it the nature of a full keeled boats that they require that much leverage?
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Re: How Unsafe are Full Keeled boats.

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Originally Posted by amwbox View Post
No, what you see in this thread is the general trend that boats that happen to have full keels tend to be slower...not that they are slower because they have full keels.

Correlation is not causation.

That said, there is also a difference between hull speed, which is mostly a factor of LWL, and actual speed over a passage, which is far more complicated.
Full keel boats are slower overall. Why do you think that all hot (not oldsters) racing boats have fins?

For displacement boats at hull speed all cats are grey but everywhere else the extra wetted surface makes full keels slower. Slower to accelerate, slower to tack etc. etc.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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