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Waltthesalt 10-13-2019 10:19 PM

Installing new engine
 
I have a new Beta 16 that has sat i a garage for nearly decade. Any thoughts on precautions to take when installing it?

capta 10-13-2019 10:54 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Did you put an oily rag in the intake and exhaust and keep them wet? I assume you live where it's moist?

Waltthesalt 10-14-2019 03:05 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
No, no oily rag.

Minnewaska 10-14-2019 04:15 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
All wearables need to be replaced: hoses, belts, impeller, filters, fluids, etc. I'd pull the injectors, spray a small amount of fogging oil in each cylinder and turn the motor over by hand to try to pre-lube as best I could. Not to mention, just insure the motor turns over, before putting the starter motor to it. Injectors don't like to sit dry that long, so having them pop tested wouldn't be a bad idea. You can always see how she runs first.

If it's an unused motor, be sure to understand the break-in procedure. This typically requires heavy load and heavy but variable throttle for specified periods to wear in the rings and avoid varnishing the cylinder walls. Most sailboats motor in and out of the harbor at loads far below those necessary to properly break in an engine. Get out there and use it for hours at first.

RegisteredUser 10-14-2019 05:05 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Yep. Call betausa and get their advice.

capta 10-14-2019 09:13 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
First, I'd pull the injectors and see if the engine turns over. The rings may be rusted to the cylinder walls or liners. The head should probably go to a shop to have the valve guides renewed, the valves seated and the injectors would do well with a rebuild.
If the engine is frozen, then you'll want to drain the oil and fill the sump and pistons with diesel and let it sit a week or two, taking a breaker bar and gently putting pressure through the crank shaft bolt, hoping to break it free. If this works you can determine the damage to the cylinder walls (or liners) and decide if the block needs to go out to repair this.
With any luck, none of this will be necessary, but not skipping any steps to make sure your 'new' engine is as new when you install it will save you big time down the road.

Rockter 10-15-2019 03:17 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Check that the motor is turning, and you will be OK.
Seriously, there is no need to change hoses or impellers or belts unless they have failed.
Check for oil in the sump, of course, and in gearbox.
.
On the general point of motor storage, every few months turn the flywheel a little to avoid the motor becoming "frozen". If it's a Beta, use the nut on the front of the motor crankshaft. Turn it gently.
Believe me, an unused engine can freeze solid with corrosion if you leave them long enough.

Minnewaska 10-15-2019 07:38 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
[QUOTE=Rockter;2051630968.....there is no need to change hoses or impellers or belts unless they have failed........[/QUOTE]

The shelf life of hoses and belts is about a half dozen years. Why would you recommend risking, or worse waiting for a failure to replace? Throw a belt or burst a hose and one could easily overheat the engine. These are wearables and time is wear.

If there has been an impeller sitting in the water pump for ten years, one risks ingesting a vane upon failure. One would hope a stored engine, didn't even have the impeller installed.

I would, however, try to turn the motor over by hand first, to see what I was dealing with.

Rockter 10-15-2019 10:38 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
If it works, leave it alone.
The alternator belt on my boat is well beyond its 10th year, the impeller 25 years, the engine hoses 30+ years.
If they look or sound distressed, they get replaced, not before.
There is no way on this earth I would change the belts, impeller, or hoses on a motor that had never been used.
Run it first, see how they perform, see how they look, then decide.
Not before.

Barquito 10-15-2019 10:42 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Would it be worth trying to bench test it before installing?

Minnewaska 10-15-2019 12:50 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051631042)
...The alternator belt on my boat is well beyond its 10th year, the impeller 25 years, the engine hoses 30+ years......

My grandmother smoked every day and died at the age of 94, from natural causes. That doesn't make smoking a recommended practice.

I implore the OP to do their own research and see what the proper advice is. A 25 year old impeller is as edge case as I've ever heard.

Hose and belts typically last longer than their shelf life. The question is whether you want to determine their durability underway, or follow best practices and avoid being stranded or causing collateral damage.

Waltthesalt 10-15-2019 05:52 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Thanks to everyone for all the great advice! I'll post the results when I get the engine in. Gotta' love Sailnet.

Scotty C-M 10-15-2019 08:25 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051631042)
If it works, leave it alone.
The alternator belt on my boat is well beyond its 10th year, the impeller 25 years, the engine hoses 30+ years.
If they look or sound distressed, they get replaced, not before.
There is no way on this earth I would change the belts, impeller, or hoses on a motor that had never been used.
Run it first, see how they perform, see how they look, then decide.
Not before.


You might want to re-think this one. Parts wear out, but they also degrade with age. An engine hose at 30 years? Unless you are really careful in checking them, you might be headed for a failure. A failure, by the way, could cost a lot of money, or happen at a time when the boat could be placed in jeopardy. But, if you're really on top of checking them.... An impeller, however, cannot be checked unless you take it out - at which point you might as well just replace it. An impeller that fails can overheat an engine really fast.

I'll illustrate my point with two stories:

A friend at the harbor is a really good sailor. Nice boat too. He came back in after a daysail with his mast broken in two. Turns out that the turnbuckle failed. Older boat, hardware older than the replacement schedule. I saw the turnbuckle. Where it failed, it was rusty along the failure surface. In other words, the failure was a long time coming. Not an engine failure, but a failure that could have killed someone if luck had gone against him.

Second story. Friend's boat, different friend, engine stopped. I towed him in. He cleaned all the filters and went to his boatf the next week, but the engine wouldn't start. Turns out that a bunch of crud had blocked the intake tube inside his diesel tank.

My point is that you don't have to go crazy, but you do need to maintain your boat systems. At least replace that impeller. In my experience, it pays off to do filters, belts, fluids, clean it and look for anthing else that you can do. A stitch in time saves nine.

Just my opinion, and how I run my boat. Your boat, your choice.

chef2sail 10-15-2019 10:46 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
25 years on an impeller. Not sure I understand the logic of risking a $10 part replacement vs having the fish the vanes out of the heat exchanger.

capta 10-16-2019 08:54 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051631042)
If it works, leave it alone.
The alternator belt on my boat is well beyond its 10th year, the impeller 25 years, the engine hoses 30+ years.
If they look or sound distressed, they get replaced, not before.
There is no way on this earth I would change the belts, impeller, or hoses on a motor that had never been used.
Run it first, see how they perform, see how they look, then decide.
Not before.

You are bragging about not changing your impeller in 25 years?
I wouldn't leave the dock with you on that boat if it was sailing after Noah's arc had sailed and it was my only hope!

Rockter 10-17-2019 11:09 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Maybe he should replace this one as well, eh? A Kubota will have something in there similar, won't it?...

Volvo Penta GUMMIKUPPLUNG - Ersatzteilnummer 827615 - Schmidt & Seifert

After all, it might fail one day unexpectedly.

And it's only $360 bucks.

Then there is the gearbox final drive seal, and the crankshaft forward seal, and the crankshaft aft seal, and the valve guide oil seals.
They have all got to be changed too, don't they?
After all, they are 10 years old and might fail, mightn't they?
And when he is digging in there trying to get them out there is no telling what else he might find or break on the way in. I mean the engine is Japanese, and nearly all those fasteners will have been impact-driven at the factory, and man they are hard to shift sometimes, eh?
Imagination knows no bounds (nor expense).
The mind boggles !

Rockter 10-17-2019 11:32 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051631266)
You are bragging about not changing your impeller in 25 years?
I wouldn't leave the dock with you on that boat if it was sailing after Noah's arc had sailed and it was my only hope!

Capta :

I am not bragging about anything and i wouldn't let you on my boat as i could not stand the constant critique (and expense) of trying to keep you happy. After all, nothing must be older than 10 years as it might fail, even the whole boat.

The impeller pumps and pumps strongly.
When it doesn't I will change it... there are two impeller spares on board, and a spare pump, and two starters, and a spare gearbox, and a spare alternator.

As for seaworthyness and the Arc and all that, well my boat took me across the North Atlantic, you know (?) through the usual gales and so on, and it still floats, and i changed the coolant impeller 25 years ago.
How far has yours sailed without stopping for spare parts? Six times round the world no-doubt?

chef2sail 10-17-2019 04:00 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051631478)
Capta :

I am not bragging about anything and i wouldn't let you on my boat as i could not stand the constant critique (and expense) of trying to keep you happy. After all, nothing must be older than 10 years as it might fail, even the whole boat.

The impeller pumps and pumps strongly.
When it doesn't I will change it... there are two impeller spares on board, and a spare pump, and two starters, and a spare gearbox, and a spare alternator.

As for seaworthyness and the Arc and all that, well my boat took me across the North Atlantic, you know (?) through the usual gales and so on, and it still floats, and i changed the coolant impeller 25 years ago.
How far has yours sailed without stopping for spare parts? Six times round the world no-doubt?

Rock,

We got your point.

There is nothing wrong with you following your own philosophy.

Just like there is nothing wrong with me following a preventative approach. Many have a PM approach to items which wear out on their boat.

Scotty C-M 10-17-2019 11:23 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
So I looked up the manufacturer's recommendation for replacing the impeller on my Yanmar 3JHAE. It says every 4 years or 1000 hours. That sounds appropriate.

Rockter 10-18-2019 12:56 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Yes, what works for you, certainly, follow it.
But would you change all the hoses, the impeller, and all the seals on an engine that has never been used?
Remember that if anyone claims that the hoses are degraded, then all the seals will be too.
Would you change out all the engine seals - all of them - as some sort of PM campaign on an engine that has never been used?
Have you ever tried removing the crankshaft seals to see how much work that is? And when you put it together again, does anyone claim that they can do a better job than the assembly line?
These engines DETEST being disturbed like that.
Wait until the first oil drips start - where previously there were none - then get back to us with this all-encompassing "PM" approach.
To me, that is beyond comprehension - just, like, out of it, somewhere.
Start it, run it, heat it up, bollard test it, wobble the hoses, get out the magnifying glass, and make your decisions, but to throw usable hoses and impellers and seals in the bin every five years and to dig out all of the engine seals starting with an engine that has never been used????
Really????

Minnewaska 10-18-2019 05:51 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Rock, please. Defending a 25 year old impeller, by suggesting hose replacement intervals are just like main seals is making up a defense. Even if the main seal did fail and leak oil, you'd easily get back to the slip. The burst hose will cause some degree of damage and render the engine inoperative.

In my book, waiting for an impeller to fail prior to replacement makes zero sense, regardless of manufacture recommendations. First, you can overheat and cause damage. Second, the failure usually throws bits of the impeller into the heat exchanger. I would hope anyone could intuitively get their head around the difference between a wet impeller in constant use, which routinely puts the bent vanes in different positions, from a dry impeller sitting in the same position for ten years. That 10 year bent vane won't even initially extend to create a seal.

Sorry you're so sensitive over standard best practice. However, you did attack the best practice advice, rather than simply provide your own input. It's also well known that hoses can/will fail, without visual external warning, if you could even see every side of every hose anyway, including the inside.

Minnewaska 10-18-2019 05:54 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Waltthesalt (Post 2051630842)
....Any thoughts on precautions to take.....

This was the OP's question by the way. The answer isn't none.

Rockter 10-18-2019 07:39 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051631600)
Rock, please. Defending a 25 year old impeller, by suggesting hose replacement intervals are just like main seals is making up a defense. Even if the main seal did fail and leak oil, you'd easily get back to the slip. The burst hose will cause some degree of damage and render the engine inoperative.

In my book, waiting for an impeller to fail prior to replacement makes zero sense, regardless of manufacture recommendations. First, you can overheat and cause damage. Second, the failure usually throws bits of the impeller into the heat exchanger. I would hope anyone could intuitively get their head around the difference between a wet impeller in constant use, which routinely puts the bent vanes in different positions, from a dry impeller sitting in the same position for ten years. That 10 year bent vane won't even initially extend to create a seal.

Sorry you're so sensitive over standard best practice. However, you did attack the best practice advice, rather than simply provide your own input. It's also well known that hoses can/will fail, without visual external warning, if you could even see every side of every hose anyway, including the inside.

No, I am trying to avoid someone going down the road of changing equipment they don't have to.
As for the claim that a blown oil seal does not threaten a motor or the boat, man, from where did you get that?
I have seen the inside of a (closed) engine compartment absolutely sprayed with gearbox oil, and (separately), a coolant line (part metal) that holed the metal and sprayed seawater all over everything, and had done for hours filling the boat up close to the floorboards.
What were they to have done? Changed everything just in case?

Minnewaska 10-18-2019 01:22 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Your on your own island. Enjoy it.

capta 10-28-2019 01:34 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051631478)
Capta :

I am not bragging about anything and i wouldn't let you on my boat as i could not stand the constant critique (and expense) of trying to keep you happy. After all, nothing must be older than 10 years as it might fail, even the whole boat.

The impeller pumps and pumps strongly.
When it doesn't I will change it... there are two impeller spares on board, and a spare pump, and two starters, and a spare gearbox, and a spare alternator.

As for seaworthyness and the Arc and all that, well my boat took me across the North Atlantic, you know (?) through the usual gales and so on, and it still floats, and i changed the coolant impeller 25 years ago.
How far has yours sailed without stopping for spare parts? Six times round the world no-doubt?

Roger that!
However, here's an impeller that was pumping beautifully for years with no over heating. No idea how long it had been this bad, nor did I enjoy finding all the impeller bits down stream. As for my seagoing experience, well, one TransAt some 20 years back (apparently when your impeller was new) really doesn't really mean much today, does it?
So please keep on doing what you are doing if it pleases you, but a total lack of preventative maintenance is not the recommended procedure, as I recollect.

capta 10-29-2019 07:16 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051633262)
Roger that!
However, here's an impeller that was pumping beautifully for years with no over heating. No idea how long it had been this bad, nor did I enjoy finding all the impeller bits down stream. As for my seagoing experience, well, one TransAt some 20 years back (apparently when your impeller was new) really doesn't really mean much today, does it?
So please keep on doing what you are doing if it pleases you, but a total lack of preventative maintenance is not the recommended procedure, as I recollect.

I owe you an apology. It was wrong of me to belittle your TransAT, be it 20 years ago or 20 days. It is a remarkable achievement and something to be proud of.
Again, you have my apologies for my poor conduct.

Rockter 11-03-2019 11:45 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Capta :

We disagreed, we will survive.
My own ship needs maintenance a-plenty and over the decades, has served me well.
Seriously now, if you ever are in Scotland, Loch Ness must be on the schedule, so look me up (here) and we will sail on that famous lake on my long-serving Polaris 36.
It is a marvelous place for a sailboat.
I don't booze, but I have some American beer in the American 'fridge.


Rockter

chef2sail 11-03-2019 08:55 PM

Re: Installing new engine
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockter (Post 2051634370)
Capta :

We disagreed, we will survive.
My own ship needs maintenance a-plenty and over the decades, has served me well.
Seriously now, if you ever are in Scotland, Loch Ness must be on the schedule, so look me up (here) and we will sail on that famous lake on my long-serving Polaris 36.
It is a marvelous place for a sailboat.
I don't booze, but I have some American beer in the American 'fridge.


Rockter

My friend had a 36 Polaris. The a beautiful and juggernaughts.
Nice boar

Rockter 11-04-2019 12:44 AM

Re: Installing new engine
 
chef :

Selling a Polaris 36 will have been the worst mistake ever made.
A Polaris is the prettiest thing that ever floated.
But then I would say that wouldn't I ?

Rockter


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