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post #101 of 156 Old 02-29-2016
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Using your math LFP indeed looks like a poorer value and LFP is more expensive but kWh is not a fair or honest method of comparing lead to LFP... You need to include things like usable capacity, cycle life, speed of recharge, wear and tear on ICE to recharge lead vs. LFP etc. etc. to make it a fair comparison.

The 400Ah LFP bank on our boat (5.2kWh or $385.00 per kWh) costs considerably less than a comparable bank of AGM batteries just on usable capacity alone and this is excluding cycle life of which our LFP bank has already exceeded the cycles of three or four typical deep cycle AGM banks used in a PSOC environment.

With a 400Ah bank we have 320Ah's of usable capacity and to equal this usable capacity, with lead acid, cycling between 50% SOC and 80-85% SOC would require a 900Ah lead acid bank. This is why we can not just use a straight kWh figure for comparison because lead acid won't yield the same usable capacity as LFP. When we throw in PSOC cycling, which is murder on cycle life for lead batteries, charge efficiency, and consider that LFP does not ever sulfate you really can't compare kWh to kWh or Ah to Ah...

Also please remember that an LFP prismatic battery cell is usually rated at a 1C discharge for its Ah capacity.

A 100Ah LFP battery can be discharged at 1C or 100A and still deliver 100Ah this is a MAJOR leap for high current EP use.

A 100Ah high performance AGM battery discharged at 1C or 100A will only deliver about 62Ah's this is a 38Ah deficit to LFP

A 100Ah deep cycle flooded battery discharged at 1C or 100A will only deliver about 47Ah's this is a -53Ah deficit to LFP.


The only way to get 100Ah out of a 100Ah rated lead acid battery is at a 5A discharge rate....

You can get 100Ah out of a 100Ah LFP battery at a 100A discharge rate...

Comparing lead acid to LFP based on Ah's or kWh's alone is like racing a Westsail 32 against and Open 60 with no handicap rating system, in other words unfair.....
I essentially agree with everything you said. I stated at the very beginning that "The only disadvantage to Lithium batteries is the cost." Even if they are superior in (almost) every way, it's still tough to get over the hump of that big price tag up front.

There are a few other disadvantages to Lithium, though they're practical, and not technology-based.

You can't just call up joe mechanic to fix your system if anything goes wrong, so you have to be highly technical to use an electric boat, especially with a Lithium battery pack. This, I think, is the #1 obstacle to mass adoption of electric yachts, even after lithium batteries get cheap enough to use even in diesel powered sailboats. With no real support infrastructure, you're on your own when problems develop.

There's still a lot of misinformation out there about lithium batteries. I still cringe whenever I see "drop in replacement" used for lithium batteries. Go ahead and drop that lithium battery into your lead-acid charging system and see how long it lasts.

For people like you and I, (I'm an engineer) these aren't serious issues. For joe boater, they're huge. I don't think many people would buy a piece of technology that there wasn't a support infrastructure for. I'm sure it will come in time, eventually.
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post #102 of 156 Old 02-29-2016
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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Originally Posted by misfits View Post
I can't wrap my head around the affordable part. Even if you can discharge them to 100%, that's an awfull amount of $ for batteries.... Must be the yankee in me.
Thunderstruck has a pretty good excel sheet that may assist you in determing what KW drives you would require for your boat. Unlike the folks in the booth next to MS at last years boat show, Thunderstrucks sheet takes stuff like continous run time & Perkerut into acount for minutes of operation based upon amp hours & DOD. May be a good starting point for you.



Expenses For Battery & BMS:

4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00 (today's cost $2100.00)
Shipping Cells = $250.00
Tyco EV200 Contactor = $79.00
House Power BMS Board = $75.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Cell Modules = $54.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Aluminum for end plates/compression = $64.00
3/8" Polycarbonate = $27.00
Anodizing Aluminum = $60.00 (minimum charge)
Nuts, Bolts, Threaded Rod, Washers etc. = $12.80
Solar and Alt HVC relays = $8.60 (Cole Herse 70A)
Bus Bar = $4.80 (Blue Sea)
Switches, Alarm Buzzer etc. $44.00
Terminals = $9.50
Total Materials = $1720.70 ($2780.00 at today's prices)


Compare that to a bank like this:


4 - 100Ah Odyssey PCM2150's for a 400Ah AGM bank = $1509.60
(note I am not even including the hold downs in that price just the batteries)

"Claimed Cycles" (disclaimer: I don't believe either of these "lab" derived claims and do believe they will both be lower in real world use.)

Odyssey Cycles at 80% DOD = 400 Cycles
Winston LiFePO4 at 80% DOD = 2000 Cycles


$$ Per Cycle Odyssey = $3.77 per lab cycle

$$ Per Cycle LiFePO4 = $0.86 per lab cycle

In the real world I had a bank of Odyssey's on a cruising customers boat die at less than 150 cycles to 50% DOD from chronic PSOC use (no solar on a mooring). This makes his battery cost $10.06 per cycle.

My 400Ah LiFePO4 bank just surpassed 800 cycles most to 80% DOD and is still testing at more than 416Ah's (about 425 Ah's when brand new).. If I based my cost per cycle just on these 800 cycles alone it is already at just $2.15 per cycle with no usable capacity loss. If I had been using lead acid batteries, the way my customer was, who got 150 cycles, I would have been through 5 400Ah banks at a cost of $7545.00 and that is Ah to Ah..

You'd need an Odyssey bank of 900Ah to equal my 400Ah LiFePO4 battery because 80% DOD is murder in a PSOC environment......

When boaters do the actual math on how many deep cycles they physically do before their lead acid batteries are dead they are usually shocked.

In a recent survey of more than 1000 sailors on battery use 79.5% of responders cycled their banks to 50% DOD less than 25 times per year. Stack that on-top of the fact that 82% of responders reported less than 6 years battery life and that means the vast majority of boaters are getting less than 150 real world cycles out of their marine batteries... Ouch! Keep in mind that many of these companies claim 1200 "lab cycles" and these batteries are still failing in less than 150 cycles in marine use....

Still LiFePO4 is not for everyone but when you compute the actual math it usually costs less, not more. Yep tough pill to swallow up front but it pays back over the long haul.....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 02-29-2016 at 06:48 PM.
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post #103 of 156 Old 02-29-2016
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

"4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00 (today's cost $2100.00)"

Maine Sail

Are you saying that the Winston Cells more than doubled in price over the years? I thought they would have come down in price.

Mike
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post #104 of 156 Old 03-01-2016
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
"4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00 (today's cost $2100.00)"

Maine Sail

Are you saying that the Winston Cells more than doubled in price over the years? I thought they would have come down in price.
I got a good deal on my cells as they had been used for some testing but were still testing at well above rated capacity, not unusual for the early Thundersky cells. When I got my cells they tested at 425Ah today 800 cycles later, with much more accurate test equipment, they test at about 416Ah.

The normal price when I bought my cells was $412.00 per cell or about $1648.00. Everyone thinks LFP prices have come down, and that may be true in the 26650/A123 form factor, but you could not pay me to use those on a boat house bank.

For prismatic cells such as GBS, CALB, Winston, Voltronix, Sinopoly etc. the trend has continued to creep slowly upwards. Today a 400Ah cell ranges from a low of about $510.00 to upwards of $600.00 and you need four of them for a 12V nominal pack.....

FWIW Brennan at Voltronix has about 100 slightly use 700Ah prismatic cells for $1.00 per Ah or $700.00 for a 700Ah cell... For a 12V bank this is a steal but for a 48V bank it gets rather large and expensive... The Voltronix cells are built by Winston but Voltronix has their own employee in the factory monitoring for QC..

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post #105 of 156 Old 03-01-2016
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Expenses For Battery & BMS:[/B]

4 - 400Ah Winston Cells = $1032.00 (today's cost $2100.00)
Shipping Cells = $250.00
Tyco EV200 Contactor = $79.00
House Power BMS Board = $75.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Cell Modules = $54.00 (Clean Power Auto LLC.)
Aluminum for end plates/compression = $64.00
3/8" Polycarbonate = $27.00
Anodizing Aluminum = $60.00 (minimum charge)
Nuts, Bolts, Threaded Rod, Washers etc. = $12.80
Solar and Alt HVC relays = $8.60 (Cole Herse 70A)
Bus Bar = $4.80 (Blue Sea)
Switches, Alarm Buzzer etc. $44.00
Terminals = $9.50
Total Materials = $1720.70 ($2780.00 at today's prices)

Still LiFePO4 is not for everyone but when you compute the actual math it usually costs less, not more. Yep tough pill to swallow up front but it pays back over the long haul.....
Yup, that is one tough pill to swallow
You make a good point on the differences, no arguing that but the example you've cited above is for a 12 volt house bank. Most electric drives are 48 volts & minimum amp hours one would want for a bank is 200. That works out to $5500.00+ for just batteries. I'm not a cheap person but that's what I meant when I said the affordable part, being a Yankee. You can but a lot of T-105's for many years with that kind of money.

Catch up with you at the show in Portland.

Bob

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I'm having a very good day!
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

Seems to me that this would be a great setup for a boat that won't be going too very far, and of course it depends on the size of the battery bank (not cheap if large)! One reason many people sail is to get away from the noisy world, so a form of propulsion that gets you off the mooring and out to the sailing grounds might be just the ticket.

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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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Seems to me that this would be a great setup for a boat that won't be going too very far, and of course it depends on the size of the battery bank (not cheap if large)! One reason many people sail is to get away from the noisy world, so a form of propulsion that gets you off the mooring and out to the sailing grounds might be just the ticket.

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This is exactly the situation that an electric does best in - a day sailor or weekender where you just need to get out of the Marina and back. If you want more capacity, you either pay for it in weight (a 48V lead acid pack is ~500lbs and gives you about 5kWh of useful capacity and costs about $1200) or money (a 48V LiFePo4 pack is ~128 lbs, gives you about 5kWh and costs about $2500.)
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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a 48V lead acid pack is ~500lbs and gives you about 5kWh of useful capacity
Take for example a 225Ah bank of 8 6V GC2 batteries and figure the numbers on the quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Quote View Post
I did do a short trip today. At 69.8 amps straight in to a 7 mph wind turning 1580 rpm she did 3.8 mph for about 1 hour.
A 225Ah (at the 20 hour rate) 48V bank with a Peukert of about 1.30 yields a battery that is only capable of 130Ah's from 100% SOC to 0% SOC.... We only want to discharge to 50% SOC for useful cycle life so a 1 hour run at 69.8A had already consumed more than half the capacity of the battery.

My point is that usable kWh is not the same when trying to A/B LFP & lead. A lead acid battery of the same kWh/Ah capcity will not deliver the same usable capacity as an LFP battery because the 225Ah battery is rated at an 11.25A load and not at a 69.8A load.

As we increase the load on lead acid the battery gets smaller. It only meets that rating at the 20 hour rate. High discharge rates on LFP do not impact the energy it can deliver like it does with lead acid..
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
I got a good deal on my cells as they had been used for some testing but were still testing at well above rated capacity, not unusual for the early Thundersky cells. When I got my cells they tested at 425Ah today 800 cycles later, with much more accurate test equipment, they test at about 416Ah.

The normal price when I bought my cells was $412.00 per cell or about $1648.00. Everyone thinks LFP prices have come down, and that may be true in the 26650/A123 form factor, but you could not pay me to use those on a boat house bank.

For prismatic cells such as GBS, CALB, Winston, Voltronix, Sinopoly etc. the trend has continued to creep slowly upwards. Today a 400Ah cell ranges from a low of about $510.00 to upwards of $600.00 and you need four of them for a 12V nominal pack.....

FWIW Brennan at Voltronix has about 100 slightly use 700Ah prismatic cells for $1.00 per Ah or $700.00 for a 700Ah cell... For a 12V bank this is a steal but for a 48V bank it gets rather large and expensive... The Voltronix cells are built by Winston but Voltronix has their own employee in the factory monitoring for QC..
Damn thought prices would have come down a lot since 2008 when I first considered Lithium's but, went with the AGM's instead. Crunching some numbers on how I currently use my EP battery bank when cruising it still looks like AGM's were/are my best bet.

Assuming 6 month cruising season.
My usual Depth of Discharge 25%
# of charge cycles per week 3
# of charge cycles per month 12
# of charge cycles per season 72
# of battery spec charge cycles at 25% DOD 1,600

1600/72 = 22 Seasons

That three charge cycles per week is generous since I tend to hang on the hook for a few days at a time usually. I'm 60 now with eight seasons of EP behind me. So I may only have to revisit this issue when I'm 74. Hopefully prices for Lithium are lower or some new battery tech will have made an appearance. Though at that age having 2000 charge cycles with Lithium batteries might be superfluous anyway.

Mike
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Last edited by mbianka; 03-03-2016 at 12:49 AM.
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Re: Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

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# of charge cycles per week 3
# of charge cycles per month 12
# of charge cycles per season 72
# of battery spec charge cycles at 25% DOD 1,600
You make a great point here. If you can get 2,000 or more cycles out of a Lithium battery, that equates to several decades of use for most people, and even heavy use should see them last longer than a decade.

I wonder if it would be possible to get "spent" Telsa or Leaf cells to use in a boat? Since the power requirements are so low in comparison to a car, even a battery that only gets 80 or 90% charge should still be plenty for most boating applications, and have more than enough life left in them to last for quite awhile. You'd have to rewire the cells though, I doubt anyone wants to run a 80kW 360V motor in their boat. Unless, of course, you'd like to go hydroplaning on your wing keel. :P
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