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post #11 of 26 Old 03-30-2016
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
There's been something of a seismic shift in Lithium batteries lately. Lightly used Tesla packs have been showing up for about $1200 on ebay. They hold 5.3kWh, and come in 24V packs.

This puts them at under $250/kWh, with the BMS and fuses already built in. This is roughly half what building your own packs would cost.

Their dimensions are 3"x11"x27", with the two terminals at one end on each corner, and they weigh only 55 lbs. You should be able to get at least 800 deep cycles (down to 20%) out of them, possibly more if you cycle them less deeply, you should get far more than that.

Does this change anyone's equation as far as moving to EP?
If my AGM's in my EP system were not holding up as well as they are I'd be very tempted. Even got me thinking I could use one of the AGM's for my solar powered whole house LED light system but, it would be overkill. Will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla's new battery factory finally comes on line too.

Mike
Currently: Heading to warm waters over the winter on a variety of boats.

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post #12 of 26 Old 03-30-2016
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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Originally Posted by Erindipity View Post
Lithium Batteries have limited Shelf Life from Date of Manufacture, even unused. The _original_ Li Battery on my backup-to-the-backup Powerbook G4 just died after ~8 years, even though it was plugged in to the Charger 99% of the time.
Note that I was only getting two years out of the Lead-Acid batteries in my old Powerbook 100, and when those Batteries died, they had a nasty tendency of taking out the fuse on the Motherboard. So things have improved.


Or ~850 hours out of a 100 watt Solar Panel= ~110 days, assuming good conversion efficiencies and ~8 hours of Sunlight a day. Say three months in reality to recharge, assuming no other Electrical load.
That's the energy content of ~2 Gallons of Diesel Fuel... and by now some wheels should be spinning...

Diesel Fuel Cells!
Diesel-Powered Fuel Cell Produces Clean Electricity - IEEE Spectrum
(Generating Diesel Fuel on the run is difficult, unless one does a fair amount of deep-fat frying with vegetable oils.)

The _only_ reason that Electric Cars on the road, like the Tesla, makes sense now is that the Charging Infrastructure mostly already exists. (Formula E is making inroads in off-road Motorsports, and I think that it's really cool. Still, only a handful of Tracks are equipped so far.)
Such Infrastructure does _not_ exist for Sailboats, and it is very unlikely, given the diminishing market, that it ever will.

ČErindipity
Tesla has the supercharger infrastructure for sure. But the level 2 system gets bigger every day, some days every hour country wide.

Again, for the long range cruiser there is not much on the horizon above the hybrid level.

However, for the average weekender who rarely travels longer than 4-6 hrs, there are masts on the horizon.

This may sound counter intuitive, but I'll say it anyway. My EV comes with roadside assistance that includes towing to the nearest charging station that I have never needed. I'm sure Seacow would love to sell more policies based on the fact that once every few years you might run out of juice an hour out.

Seacow will tow anyone with a policy. Hell, they sell the same policy to a brand new 40ft sailboat that they do to an old skiff with a sometimes running outboard. They don't sell towing, they sell peace of mind.

If you want to see something interesting, take a look at how fast it's growing on the road.
PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car!
Don't forget to click "residential chargers" This will show thousand of EV owners who share their home charging stations with other EV owners for free. Many of us keep a six pack or a bottle of wine in the trunk to leave on a doorstep. EV owners are a lot like sailors

The network for charging daysailer/weekenders is already there in the form of shore power. It's everywhere.

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post #13 of 26 Old 03-30-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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Originally Posted by Erindipity View Post
Lithium Batteries have limited Shelf Life from Date of Manufacture, even unused. The _original_ Li Battery on my backup-to-the-backup Powerbook G4 just died after ~8 years, even though it was plugged in to the Charger 99% of the time.
You probably only lost a single cell, which kills the whole pack. I see this quite often working in the IT world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erindipity View Post
Or ~850 hours out of a 100 watt Solar Panel= ~110 days, assuming good conversion efficiencies and ~8 hours of Sunlight a day. Say three months in reality to recharge, assuming no other Electrical load.
That's an awfully small solar panel for an EP boat. If I had a blue water cruiser that was EP, I'd want a 500W set of panels over the dinghy davits, and maybe a wind generator besides. On top of that, any EP boat has regen, so you'd have more than enough power for everything on a long passage. A recent test of a 48v 10kW system (which is only for a ~30' boat, not a blue water cruiser) yielded ~500W of regen at ~7 knots.

At least with Lithium batteries you have no chance of charging them too fast, even if you could magically combine shore power with your solar and regen. Most can be completely recharged in an hour with sufficient current. Some can be charged even faster than that.

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Originally Posted by Erindipity View Post
The _only_ reason that Electric Cars on the road, like the Tesla, makes sense now is that the Charging Infrastructure mostly already exists. (Formula E is making inroads in off-road Motorsports, and I think that it's really cool. Still, only a handful of Tracks are equipped so far.)
Such Infrastructure does _not_ exist for Sailboats, and it is very unlikely, given the diminishing market, that it ever will.
I agree. A car is much more like a power boat, though, and I think we're a very long way away from seeing a battery equivalent of a 200 gallon tank of diesel, even if some of the recent breakthroughs make it into production right away.

If we're honest about our boat usage, I think it would be a pretty rare instance that you would need to cruise under power long enough to drain the batteries. Of course, if you found that you were doing that regularly, you could always install a generator.
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post #14 of 26 Old 03-31-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
If my AGM's in my EP system were not holding up as well as they are I'd be very tempted. Even got me thinking I could use one of the AGM's for my solar powered whole house LED light system but, it would be overkill. Will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla's new battery factory finally comes on line too.
The Gigafactory is already in operation, even as they continue to build it. It was designed to be modular, so as each module was completed it would come online. The first module started up a couple of months ago. They won't be at full production for a couple of years, though.

Here's the latest on the factory:

Drone Footage Reveals Tesla's Gigafactory Has A Dope Ass Traffic Circle

And the model 3 drops today. It will be interesting to see how the final design turned out.
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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The Gigafactory is already in operation, even as they continue to build it. It was designed to be modular, so as each module was completed it would come online. The first module started up a couple of months ago. They won't be at full production for a couple of years, though.

Here's the latest on the factory:

Drone Footage Reveals Tesla's Gigafactory Has A Dope Ass Traffic Circle

And the model 3 drops today. It will be interesting to see how the final design turned out.
I really could use an electric car considering most of my driving is local and mostly consists of 7 miles to the boatyard. My 97 model car that I bought new just turned over 30,000 miles. Though since I drive my cars till the wheels fall off I doubt I'll be getting one real soon. My one requirement my eight foot Portabote dingy has to fit in it.

Mike
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post #16 of 26 Old 03-31-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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I really could use an electric car considering most of my driving is local and mostly consists of 7 miles to the boatyard. My 97 model car that I bought new just turned over 30,000 miles. Though since I drive my cars till the wheels fall off I doubt I'll be getting one real soon. My one requirement my eight foot Portabote dingy has to fit in it.
Hell, you could get away with one of the little EVs available today, like a Leaf, much less a Tesla, if you didn't need the cargo space.

I put about 4000 miles on my Highlander Hybrid just in March. Drove from DC to Miami and back, then to Toronto and back, on top of my usual driving.

The only car I ever bought new, my 1999 VW Beetle turbo, I drove off the lot and into the ground. Mind you, I was driving for a living at that point, so it only took 5 years @ 40-50k miles a year.
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post #17 of 26 Old 03-31-2016
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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Hell, you could get away with one of the little EVs available today, like a Leaf, much less a Tesla, if you didn't need the cargo space.

I put about 4000 miles on my Highlander Hybrid just in March. Drove from DC to Miami and back, then to Toronto and back, on top of my usual driving.

The only car I ever bought new, my 1999 VW Beetle turbo, I drove off the lot and into the ground. Mind you, I was driving for a living at that point, so it only took 5 years @ 40-50k miles a year.
The leaf has a surprising amount of cargo space, about as much as a smaller SUV.

Due to advances in range, the older ones are depreciating pretty fast. My advice is to buy used if you don't need range, or look for a good deal on a lease.

And don't waste money on a level 2 charger if you are home every night with 50% or more remaining on the battery. I use 110v charging most of the time as I rarely drive more than fifty miles in a day.

Plus is that you can drive with the hatchback open and not have to worry about passing out from back-drafted carbon monoxide
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

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The leaf has a surprising amount of cargo space, about as much as a smaller SUV.

Due to advances in range, the older ones are depreciating pretty fast. My advice is to buy used if you don't need range, or look for a good deal on a lease.

And don't waste money on a level 2 charger if you are home every night with 50% or more remaining on the battery. I use 110v charging most of the time as I rarely drive more than fifty miles in a day.

Plus is that you can drive with the hatchback open and not have to worry about passing out from back-drafted carbon monoxide
Actually, what I'm really looking forward to is having auto driving car especially as I get older. A lot of things happening with them these days at Tesla and other companies. Most likely will be electric too.

Mike
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post #19 of 26 Old 03-31-2016
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

With all the stories of lithium battery fires over the past months, I am not in a hurry to put them on my boat. You can jump out of a burning car or away from a flaming laptop but on a boat?

I'll wait a while longer before trying them in a critical situation thanks.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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Re: Cheap Tesla battery modules now available

SloopJonB

Tesla battery fires are extremely rare. I can only think of one and it had to do with running over a trailer hitch at highway speed. With proper BMS for each cell, proper fusing and high and low voltage cut off. Your chances of fire issue are pretty darn low. My hypothesis would be that it would not be the batteries that cause the fire but some other short in the system that would just as likely occur if it was Lead, or Lithium.
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