"Not an electrician" needs wiring critique. - SailNet Community
 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 46 Old 11-22-2016 Thread Starter
Member
 
smitty225's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 48
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
 
"Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

So...I'm a newbie, but enthusiastic never-the-less. I've got a new to me, 78' Catalina 27 with wiring so bad I almost cried when I pulled the DC panel out. Calling it a fire hazard doesn't even come close to what's in the boat.

I couldn't even count the badly soldered wires hanging off the panel bus bars. Several attempts were made to bypass the fused circuit. Ugh....

A look at the battery bank showed a starter battery and a house battery. The house battery had about 8 home runs to the positive terminal. Two of the wires had broken off their badly crimped ring terminals and were just hanging out. A short just waiting to happen.

Clearly a complete rewiring was in order.

If any of your "smarter than me" people would be kind enough to have a look at my fresh off the press wiring diagram, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mike

http://i.imgur.com/1LlJRwm.jpg
Attached Thumbnails
Cat 27 wiring diagram 1.jpg  

Last edited by smitty225; 11-22-2016 at 02:35 PM. Reason: added link to hosted image.
smitty225 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Learning the HARD way...
 
eherlihy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston / Ft Myers Area
Posts: 6,920
Thanks: 396
Thanked 299 Times in 294 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

I can't see your diagram. I STRONGLY suggest posting it at higher res to a picture hosting service of your choice.

That said, here is an older diagram of the primary electrical circuit diagram on my '87 O'day 35. You may find it helpful/inspirational/laughable.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

USCG Licensed OUPV Captain, US/Sailing BKB and ASA 101/103/104/105/106/114/118 Instructor - Also ABYC certified in Marine Electrical Systems,


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
eherlihy is online now  
post #3 of 46 Old 11-22-2016 Thread Starter
Member
 
smitty225's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 48
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

Added imgur link to higer res image. Let me know if you prefer visio.
smitty225 is offline  
 
post #4 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Senior Member
 
GeorgeB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,088
Thanks: 3
Thanked 69 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 16
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

Smitty, stand by for lots of messages telling you that “you are doing it all wrong”. You will probably want to post some additional information so you can move the discussion along like the age of the boat (70’s vintage boats were built to a different standard than today); the size of your batteries; and the intended use of the boat/ electrical system. From your diagram, you have only the one source of charging (the shore charger)? The start battery’s sole job is to start a 9.9 HP outboard? I’m assuming that your boat has a pair of group 24 or 27 batteries? In that case, one of those batteries is overkill being solely dedicated to engine start. Why not run the traditional switched battery system? Why the need to have an inverter? Again, a single group 24 or 27 battery is inadequate to run an inverter for any length of time. From your diagram, most of your needs can be satisfied by the 12VDC system. You can still run a 110 VAC circuit panel for shore power at the dock (this would include a switch for the charger). I’m assuming that the various bus bars/terminal strips is that you want to “splice in” your new wiring. You will want to invest in a good label maker to mark/identify the wires and also buy a quality crimper (don’t be afraid to spend the $$$ as this will be one of the best investments you will make).

George B
2000 Catalina 34 MkII
Alameda, Ca.
GeorgeB is offline  
post #5 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

Why two feeds from your 30A shore power with two switches? Use one Off/Shore/Inverter switch and fuse both inputs. Remember you have to bond ground and neutral from the inverter if not done internally and NOT from shore power.

Why USB, lights, and fans on shore power? Move to 12 VDC side.

I'm not a big fan of 1/2/Both switches. Three on/off switches give more flexibility at some extra cost.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
post #6 of 46 Old 11-22-2016 Thread Starter
Member
 
smitty225's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 48
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Why two feeds from your 30A shore power with two switches?
It's really one switch. I couldn't find a pic with a single switch. My apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Remember you have to bond ground and neutral from the inverter if not done internally and NOT from shore power.
It's handled internally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Why USB, lights, and fans on shore power?
I'd like the option to use AC devices, when NOT connected to shore power.
smitty225 is offline  
post #7 of 46 Old 11-22-2016 Thread Starter
Member
 
smitty225's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 48
Thanks: 6
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

I uploaded a better image. Check it out.
smitty225 is offline  
post #8 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Super Moderator
 
Maine Sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 32
Thanked 363 Times in 283 Posts
Rep Power: 10
       
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty225 View Post
So...I'm a newbie, but enthusiastic never-the-less. I've got a new to me, 78' Catalina 27 with wiring so bad I almost cried when I pulled the DC panel out. Calling it a fire hazard doesn't even come close to what's in the boat.

I couldn't even count the badly soldered wires hanging off the panel bus bars. Several attempts were made to bypass the fused circuit. Ugh....

A look at the battery bank showed a starter battery and a house battery. The house battery had about 8 home runs to the positive terminal. Two of the wires had broken off their badly crimped ring terminals and were just hanging out. A short just waiting to happen.

Clearly a complete rewiring was in order.

If any of your "smarter than me" people would be kind enough to have a look at my fresh off the press wiring diagram, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Mike

http://i.imgur.com/1LlJRwm.jpg
Most of the major issues are on the AC side.

#1 AC Wiring is: Black = Hot, White = Neutral & Green = Earth/Grounding Conductor

#2 You can't take an On/Off switch and an outlet straight off a 30A AC feed it needs to go though the double pole breaker then come off a "branch" breaker on the AC panel.

#3 The battery charger gets powered/run off an AC panel breaker

#4 With a non-marine UL inverter is it up to you to make sure that when the transfer switch is in the ON position that the inverters neutral and ground are bonded together because it is now your "power source". When the inverter is OFF there should be no Neutral to Ground bond on-board. Most cheap inverters do not connect Neutral to Earth (unless there is an internal failure of the inverter) and this can create a human safety issue. A proper marine inverter creates the correct neutral/Earth pathway switching.

Inverter ON = Neutral and Earth bonded (continuity) at inverter
Inverter OFF = Neutral and Earth UNBONDED on board the vessel.

Make sure your shore/inverter transfer switch can be wired to properly to create the correct neutral (white) & Earth (green) wiring for inverter ON and inverter OFF.


#5 AC grounding (green) and DC ships ground need be bonded on-board the vessel but AC Neutral and AC Green must remain unbonded unless your inverter is actually operational.

#6 You show a 30A in-line fuse on a red AC feed. With AC power the main feed must break both Neutral (white) and Hot (black) simultaneously. This is in the form of a double pole main breaker. If the main AC breaker does not have a reverse polarity circuit then all branch breakers need to be double pole breakers.

#7 If your main triplex wire feed to the AC panel is longer than 10 wire feet then you need an additional 30A double pole breaker at the 30A inlet.

#8 If you plug into shore power then you'll want a galvanic isolator at a bare minimum..

#9 Any AC connection needs to be made with access only by tools. Power posts are not ideally suited to or used for AC work.

#10 As has been mentioned most of the items on the AC list can all be run directly of DC 12V. They will run considerably more efficiently than they will off an inexpensive PWM inverter and use less battery power..

#11 A separate starter battery, with a 9.9HP pull-start motor, is really quite a bit of overkill. Combine both batteries into one large bank and they will easily start your motor even when dragged down to 90% DOD with ease. Now all you need is a simple ON/OFF battery switch.

#12 On a vessel like a Catalina 27 the only things on a 12V "always on" circuit should really be the bilge pump and a stereo memory wire, if you really need it.. Putting too much on the always on circuit leads to dead batteries far too often. As many circuits as can be turned off with one switch is always the best design foundation to start from.



My overall recommendation = SIMPLIFY:

*Ditch the entire AC system - Most of your complications revolve around doing AC safely and correctly.

*If your dock offers 15A or 20A 120V AC simply use an extension cord for the battery charger, when dockside, and plug directly into the charger.

*Make starting battery part of the main bank and keep a single ON/OFF switch

*Put everything on the switched DC panel that you can other than the bilge pump and perhaps the stereo memory, if your stereo really requires it.

*If you must have an inverter wire it direct to the bank with proper fusing and use the GFCI outlet on the inverter as your AC source..

______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 11-22-2016 at 04:13 PM.
Maine Sail is offline  
post #9 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Learning the HARD way...
 
eherlihy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston / Ft Myers Area
Posts: 6,920
Thanks: 396
Thanked 299 Times in 294 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

(grumble...)


This is how you should post an image...
*Now* I'll look at it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

USCG Licensed OUPV Captain, US/Sailing BKB and ASA 101/103/104/105/106/114/118 Instructor - Also ABYC certified in Marine Electrical Systems,


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
eherlihy is online now  
post #10 of 46 Old 11-22-2016
Learning the HARD way...
 
eherlihy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston / Ft Myers Area
Posts: 6,920
Thanks: 396
Thanked 299 Times in 294 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: "Not an electrician" needs wiring critique.

At the risk of restating what @Maine Sail has posted above (I have not studied his post), here is what jumps out at me;

You have two different electrical systems: AC and DC. Wire gauge IS IMPORTANT. Fuses and breakers PROTECT THE WIRE, and not the device. You also need to be cognizant of the amount of voltage drop, which is a function of the length of the circuit, the amps carried by the circuit, and the gauge of the wire.

In the DC world: Red = "+"12VDC and Yellow (prefered) or Black = "-"12VDC
You should have a fuse within 7" of any power source (like a battery or switch panel). The fuse should be BEFORE the power switch. I have no problem with the Off, 1, both, 2, switch, as long as you know how to use it.

If you wire for permanent AC, the color code (pointed out by Maine Sail) is Black = "HOT", White = "Ground" or "Neutral" and Green = "GroundING." You MUST have a breaker on both the black and the white wire. You don't NEED a galvanic isolator (read this in MS' post), but it is recommended.

I read Maine's post about the inverter and groundING circuit, and he's right. The point is that ground (white) and groundING (green) circuits are only connected at the source of A/C. My suggestion for a 27 foot boat, is; don't bother with an inverter.

Hope this helps.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

USCG Licensed OUPV Captain, US/Sailing BKB and ASA 101/103/104/105/106/114/118 Instructor - Also ABYC certified in Marine Electrical Systems,


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by eherlihy; 11-22-2016 at 04:50 PM.
eherlihy is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Seacock" vs. "ballcock" or "ball valve?" SEMIJim Gear & Maintenance 18 09-02-2013 06:31 PM
VIDEO: Coast Guard Academy Welcomes "Blue Goose" and "Stormy Petrel" - Patch.com NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-28-2012 08:50 AM
C270 Main Sail "stack Pack", Quick Cover", "lazy Bag" Install randy22556 Catalina 1 02-28-2007 12:53 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome