Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 25 Old 03-10-2019 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Terry L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 10
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

John16ct,
Thanks much for the follow up on the SG200, the links to the other posts were very informative. I didnít realize there was a holy war on battery monitoring going on, especially with the trawler folks. I do have reservations about the SG200, because Iím most interested in seeing AH in and out for the solar system Iím installing. Frankly, the cost of the SG200 plus the extra smart shunt puts it in the range of just buying two of the Victron monitors. Being a real-time control guy in my early career, I do like the newer, learning tech in the SG200. It seems it would be pretty simple for Balmar to update the software to provide that information as well considering they are measuring it with the shunt. If it did both, Iíd buy it.

SanderO,
The battery is for my windlass and lives admidships for cable length reasons and is a good 12 feet away from my house bank. It isnít feasible to relocate it.

Terry

S/V Kestrel
Catalina 42 MK II
Colonial Beach, Virginia
Terry L is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 25 Old 03-10-2019
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,202
Thanks: 2
Thanked 87 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
John16ct,


SanderO,
The battery is for my windlass and lives admidships for cable length reasons and is a good 12 feet away from my house bank. It isn’t feasible to relocate it.

Terry
Terry,
Have you considered or is it possible to use heavier wiring for the windlass and skip the designated windlass battery?

My engine is on and had a high output alternator when I am using the windlass. Windlass draws can be significant. However I use the windlass to basically take the slack / catenary out of the chain and this imparts forward motion to the anchor. The windlass doesn't drain the batts very much as the alternator is pumping amps into the batts. I do NOT have a windlass battery but instead have 2 8Ds and use 2/0 cable to the bow from the house batt.

One has to make a cost benefit analysis when putting together an electrical system for a yacht. My dual battery monitor wiring is simple... my windlass wiring is simple. I use a high output alternator because it does the job quicker. The weight is probably less with the 2/0 wiring and evenly distributed low in the bilge along the CL. I don't need a battery box taking up real estate which needs access... and I charge on bank. The start bank is small and on an echo charge. I don't have to fiddle with battery switches either.

Of course when you have committed to an one approach changing may not be feasible. I did a complete re do some years ago.
Attached Thumbnails
1 - Electric Schematics -12v main power.jpg  

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #13 of 25 Old 03-10-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 114
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Yes if at all possible, a super heavy pair of wires is a better design than separate banks.

But sometimes it is just not possible.
john61ct is online now  
 
post #14 of 25 Old 03-10-2019
Super Moderator
 
Maine Sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 6,673
Thanks: 31
Thanked 356 Times in 276 Posts
Rep Power: 10
       
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
I’m most interested in seeing AH in and out for the solar system I’m installing.
If this is what you want to see then a Coulomb counter or ammeter would be required on the PV system. Ah counters show you "net current" flowing into the battery not what current the PV array is providing unless all DC loads are off and the bank can accept it.. For example if your PV array was supplying 20A of current, the bank could accept it, and your DC system had a 5A load on it the Ah counters current screen would display +15A.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
Frankly, the cost of the SG200 plus the extra smart shunt puts it in the range of just buying two of the Victron monitors. Being a real-time control guy in my early career, I do like the newer, learning tech in the SG200. It seems it would be pretty simple for Balmar to update the software to provide that information as well considering they are measuring it with the shunt. If it did both, I’d buy it.
The SG200 will show exactly what any Ah counter will on the current screen, net current flowing into a bank. In an upcoming software update I suspect it will get a 24 hour -Ah consumption screen.


I would urge anyone considering an Ah counter, and desiring an accurate SOC calculation, to read the article below on programming them for better accuracy:

Making Your Battery Monitor More Accurate (LINK)




.

______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-10-2019 at 05:09 PM.
Maine Sail is offline  
post #15 of 25 Old 03-10-2019 Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Terry L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 10
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
If this is what you want to see then a Coulomb counter or ammeter would be required on the PV system. Ah counters show you "net current" flowing into the battery not what current the PV array is providing unless all DC loads are off and the bank can accept it.. For example if your PV array was supplying 20A of current, the bank could accept it, and your DC system had a 5A load on it the Ah counters current screen would display +15A.




The SG200 will show exactly what any Ah counter will on the current screen, net current flowing into a bank. In an upcoming software update I suspect it will get a 24 hour -Ah consumption screen.


I would urge anyone considering an Ah counter, and desiring an accurate SOC calculation, to read the article below on programming them for better accuracy:

Making Your Battery Monitor More Accurate (LINK)




.

Right, understood. What I want is the delta AH between charge and discharge over 24 hours. That will allow me to tweak solar production and consumption to get to a decent balance. Instantaneous measurement of amps is not useful, only the history over a day night cycle will paint that picture. This is a different need than a battery health or state of charge computation. That said, these are also valuable and desirable in themselves which makes the SG200 very interesting. I may wait a bit to decide and see if Balmar implements an AH counter in their software. It sure seems that adding that functionality would pretty much kill the competition. And after all, itís only software right?
Terry

S/V Kestrel
Catalina 42 MK II
Colonial Beach, Virginia
Terry L is online now  
post #16 of 25 Old 03-10-2019
Super Moderator
 
Maine Sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 6,673
Thanks: 31
Thanked 356 Times in 276 Posts
Rep Power: 10
       
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
Right, understood. What I want is the delta AH between charge and discharge over 24 hours. That will allow me to tweak solar production and consumption to get to a decent balance. Instantaneous measurement of amps is not useful, only the history over a day night cycle will paint that picture. This is a different need than a battery health or state of charge computation. That said, these are also valuable and desirable in themselves which makes the SG200 very interesting. I may wait a bit to decide and see if Balmar implements an AH counter in their software. It sure seems that adding that functionality would pretty much kill the competition. And after all, it’s only software right?
Terry

If you read the link above you'll come to realize that -Ah's out, to +Ah's in, does not tell the whole story due to a myriad of issues related to charging batteries and the way most Coulomb counters actually work vs. how people think they work. In a PSOC environment a traditional Ah counter can actually become quite out of whack with the bank, and become misleading, especially the further away you get, in PSOC cycles, from a full charge reset.

If you want to balance your PV charging and get back to 100% SOC daily or bi-daily, or twice weekly any ammeter/voltmeter combo can tell you that. Voltage at 14.4V+ / net accepted current at 1.5% of Ah capacity or less / bank is pretty much full. If you're not getting to that point boost wattage or reduce consumption.

The SOC calculation on the SG200 will also do exactly what you need and do so accurately. If you're only getting back to 89% SOC you know you need to either boost your wattage or reduce consumption until you can hit 98-100% SOC.

______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-10-2019 at 06:14 PM.
Maine Sail is offline  
post #17 of 25 Old 03-10-2019
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,202
Thanks: 2
Thanked 87 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
Right, understood. What I want is the delta AH between charge and discharge over 24 hours. That will allow me to tweak solar production and consumption to get to a decent balance. Instantaneous measurement of amps is not useful, only the history over a day night cycle will paint that picture. This is a different need than a battery health or state of charge computation. That said, these are also valuable and desirable in themselves which makes the SG200 very interesting. I may wait a bit to decide and see if Balmar implements an AH counter in their software. It sure seems that adding that functionality would pretty much kill the competition. And after all, itís only software right?
Terry
Curious... solar energy is a variable. Consumption can also be a variable... who uses the same number of amps in 24 hrs?

I could see that you might collect data and arrive at daily averages. It might show you consume more amps than your solar produces. Solutions: cut back on consumption, add more solar.

My experience has been that on a mooring and on anchor my solar keeps my 2 8Ds topped up except when we are consuming amps by using the boat. However using the boat for us requires the motor if we are going anywhere... and when we do that out alternator can add a bunch of amps quicker than solar.

There are cases when we are on board and the batts are drained and we leave. The solar over the week will bring the batts back up to full charge.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #18 of 25 Old 03-11-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 19,518
Thanks: 82
Thanked 550 Times in 527 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

My charger control panel (Magnum) has an amp hour counter and tries to tell me when the bank is full at 100% SOC. It's totally useless. I know the settings are correct, at least to the extent it allows things to be set. I know it's not correct, because it can be showing, via a shunt, that the bank is still taking charge in Acceptance of 2+% of capacity (maybe more, as I can only estimate what degraded capacity is) and it claims the bank is at 100% SOC. I understand it's simply counting amps out and amps in. It's even supposed to reset itself and account for degredation, over time. I totally ignore it.

The only thing I find useful from the amp counter is seeing charge acceptance to know I'm really fully charged and seeing what loads are on the bank in the moment. I'm not even convinced I can really tell when I'm close to 50% SOC.
SanderO likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #19 of 25 Old 03-11-2019
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,202
Thanks: 2
Thanked 87 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

What to do???

So you have the latest and greatest monitor... which is telling you what the state of your batts are... how many hours left to x% of discharge... or how many you're consuming amps and so on while you go about normal activities on board.

What do you do? Do you shut down things which are drawing loads? Instruments? Lighting? Do run a genset or an the engine? Do you order new stuff which draws fewer amps? Do you order more or higher output solar panels? A wind gen? Do you look for some fault in your gear or wiring? Or even the monitor itself? Do you buy bigger batteries? or add more in parallel?

What do you do with the information your monitor is providing?

I am not suggesting that this information has no value. I am asking sailors who use the monitors how do they use them and how does the information change your sailing practices?

I installed a Link20 and thought at first how useful it would be. I loved that I could literally see how many amps any device would draw by turning it on and viewing the change in AMP display. I liked the precision compared with my oem Bosch gauges. I felt I had a better understanding of the state of things at any given moment. I like I can see how any amps the alt is actually putting out or the solar panels or the instruments... I tried to get the rest of the features to work for me... hours and % of charge and so on. Found them confounding and useless.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

Last edited by SanderO; 03-11-2019 at 08:21 AM.
SanderO is online now  
post #20 of 25 Old 03-11-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 114
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Battery Montioring Physically Separated Banks

Yes, if the bank is expensive and longevity a priority,

time higher consumption loads for after it gets to Full, at least a few days a week.

Do motoring or run genny in the AM when I see solar won't be enough to get there by itself.

Stop drawing, or start up genny, when SoC gets below 50%
john61ct is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Outer Banks Voice - Coast Guard assists man on sailboat 20 ... - The Outer Banks NewsReader News Feeds 0 12-15-2017 03:20 AM
Physically challenged and looking for passage. idluckyguy Crew Wanted/Available 3 10-16-2011 02:39 AM
Embarrassing question - How to physically get from anchor to shore synapse General Discussion (sailing related) 21 09-06-2011 03:22 PM
Battery Chargers for Multiple Battery Banks btrayfors Electrical Systems 5 11-15-2009 11:57 AM
Goose neck separated! L124C Gear & Maintenance 6 10-06-2009 11:29 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome