Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice? - Page 15 - SailNet Community
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post #141 of 245 Old 08-14-2016
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

Smack go sailing then come back. Bye that's what we're doing.

You're a much better man than me gunga din. I'm a wimp and want to change mag. Advance screen. See AIS/radar targets. Change from north up to course up. While glancing at depth, awa,aws, current arrow, sog, cog, speedo, etc. all in a glance. At night in dir ct sunlight, in fog with wet screen with wet or oily hands, with charge in the air. Never worry about the battery or dropping it. Never worry about getting a signal. No most cruisers aren't following your path. There's a reason. It's not about tech. It's about ease of use at high stress times.

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post #142 of 245 Old 08-14-2016
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Again we have this sort of situation where Mr Sailor needs to see perhaps an entire region of several hundred miles to "plan" a journey or set up multiple waypoints and routes (even). I don't get it.

I do have paper charts and at large scale they are easy to get the big picture and you can even guess with reasonable accuracy bearings between two points. With a MFD gps plotter or nav enabled mobile device you can point and click.. set a couple of points and learn the bearing. Do I need to know that the bearing between City Island NY and Cuttyhunk Ma is 91° (just a guess here)? Of what use is this? Does it help to know that the bearing from City Island to Fishers Island is 88°?

When do I need to waypoints "programmed" into my device when it takes perhaps 2 or 3 days to sail to them? I can't speak for other sailors... but unless the conditions are batsh*t crazy I have more than enough time to select and set a waypoint... which.... more often than not I can't fetch on the tack I am on because of the wind direction... without tacking or gybing. I sail and don't motor. When I motor I can go straight as an arrow from one point to another...

++++

I had acquired a whole bunch of waypoints stored in my C80 since the early 00s... I set one, name it and it remained in "memory" and for use after the first use. Over time I had scores of them or more from Annapolis to Down East Maine. Over the years I didn't even have to set one... it was there in the library.

Then the C80 crashed and I had to do a "factory reset" and lost all the waypoints. Oh the horror! I just now had to manually enter them... a task that takes about 10 seconds each.

And it was then I realized that routes and waypoint libraries are just nonsense and for people obsessed with
video game like technology.

My new Audi comes with something called MMI... Multi Media Interface. It too is a "video game like technology". Only driving a car is way way way more dangerous than sailing a boat... and you can't be distracted. MMI IS DISTRACTED DRIVING TECHNOLOGY. I think the NTSB should ban them or make it impossible to access when the car is moving. What sort of idiot would design a touch pad...interface to a car where you write with your fingertip and the MMI recognizes what you wrote? While driving???????????????????????????????????

What is interesting about MMI navigation or "route guidance" is that it does not allow you to point and click your destination. You have to "program it" with an address. While driving????????????????? OK if an address is stored you can tell it to navigate you to Jane Smith... or West Marine... But this demands you have all these ADDRESSES programed into the memory.

Car drives beautifully... MMI is a dangerous feature and will kill people... if it hasn't already. Audi's answer? People want it. Pokemon has killed people...

++++

The question is... does this technology kill more people than it saves? I am fine with seeing charts on screens... with my position and heading showing... And that's all I need. The heading line shows what is in my path... thin water, rocks, buoys and aids to navigation, anchorages, restricted areas, open seas... passing an area of strong currents and so on. THAT is helpful and all I need to have. You can take your routes and shove em as far as I am concerned. So it doesn't matter whether you get you positional awareness from a mobile device or a fixed mount plotter. I used a Garmin iQue 3600... a gps enabled PDA (personal desk assistance... remember them?) in the cockpit. It is fabulous.... no waypoints... just a heading line on very sunlight readable BlueSeas charts... stylus touch screen... pan and zoom to any scale. I replaced it with a larger screen Zeus T7... which DOES include waypoints which I don't bother with anyway.

What are waypoints good for? Telling my wife when we will arrive at our destination. Machine computes that based on our current speed and heading thru the water. And that will change so it's a wild and inaccurate guess. I have to "add my input" to the dumb machine... based my my experience... something the idiot machine doesn't have.

Navigation chart plotter technology can be useful... it is mostly a distraction and a toy/game... Buyer beware... use at your own (crew's, guests') peril...

rant over.
Well put. Describes how I utilize my CP in many ways. Waypoints only good for multiple used routes so. Can sleep an my wife can follow them.

How do you deal with radar?


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post #143 of 245 Old 08-14-2016
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

Unfortunately I have the radar on the MFD below at the nav desk... viewable from the companionway but not optimal. Next iteration will have an n2k with radar available to the T7 in the cockpit. No I am not running a radar cable to the cockpit. N2k will put AIS on the T7 as well.
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Smack go sailing then come back. Bye that's what we're doing.
We just sailed 1K miles from Texas-Florida during June-August. So you were saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I'm a wimp and want to change mag.
I'm not sure what this means. If you mean change between magnetic and true heading readings - we can do that easily with our iPad. In fact, I can easily show both at the same time.

So, check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Advance screen.
Check. Actually far more advanced than virtually any MFD out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
See AIS/radar targets.
Check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Change from north up to course up. While glancing at depth, awa,aws, current arrow, sog, cog, speedo, etc. all in a glance.
Check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
At night in dir ct sunlight, in fog with wet screen with wet or oily hands, with charge in the air.
Check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Never worry about the battery or dropping it.
Check. Actually, we have TWO sources of power - internal battery and house bank (three if you count solar). You only have one. And I never worry about dropping it while its mounted just like yours is.

Oh, and unlike yours, I never worry about not being able to see it when I'm anywhere on our boat. I just slip it out of its mount and take it with me (or use one of my many redundant backup iDevices). And I've never dropped it. Not once. So maybe that's the user - not the device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Never worry about getting a signal.
Check. I've never worried about signal for the chartplotter itself. Never been a problem.

However, you might have a slight advantage in the area of WiFi-vs-wired connection for AIS and SeaTalk instrumentation. But your advantage is only very slight, and you give up a lot of other advantages to have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
No most cruisers aren't following your path. There's a reason. It's not about tech. It's about ease of use at high stress times.
An increasing number are. No question about that.

Bottom line: if you make a categorical statement like you did above, it's going to be patently ridiculous. The advantages of one over the other just aren't that pronounced. Period.

In fact, when you really get down to objectively evaluating both columns of advantages, I think the iPad solution has the overall edge...which is why it's gaining traction.

Stick to what you like and/or feel comfortable with, I have no problem with that - but let's not be ridiculous.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-14-2016 at 09:25 PM.
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post #145 of 245 Old 08-15-2016
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

I read your whole post and it doesn't make a lot of sense. But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Again we have this sort of situation where Mr Sailor needs to see perhaps an entire region of several hundred miles to "plan" a journey or set up multiple waypoints and routes (even). I don't get it.

...

When do I need to waypoints "programmed" into my device when it takes perhaps 2 or 3 days to sail to them?

....

And it was then I realized that routes and waypoint libraries are just nonsense and for people obsessed with
video game like technology.
Well, if you're only sailing in your local waters...of course this doesn't make sense. If you sail into far-away places and unfamiliar waters, it suddenly make a hell of a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
My new Audi comes with something called MMI... Multi Media Interface. It too is a "video game like technology". Only driving a car is way way way more dangerous than sailing a boat... and you can't be distracted. MMI IS DISTRACTED DRIVING TECHNOLOGY. I think the NTSB should ban them or make it impossible to access when the car is moving. What sort of idiot would design a touch pad...interface to a car where you write with your fingertip and the MMI recognizes what you wrote? While driving???????????????????????????????????

What is interesting about MMI navigation or "route guidance" is that it does not allow you to point and click your destination. You have to "program it" with an address. While driving????????????????? OK if an address is stored you can tell it to navigate you to Jane Smith... or West Marine... But this demands you have all these ADDRESSES programed into the memory.
Wow. You can't just pay attention to the road on your own? You want the NTSB to keep you from drawing pictures while you're driving by banning the technology? My Maserati has great technology - that works exactly as it should. It even allows the driver to practice self-discipline. Maybe you just need a better car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Car drives beautifully... MMI is a dangerous feature and will kill people... if it hasn't already. Audi's answer? People want it. Pokemon has killed people...

The question is... does this technology kill more people than it saves?
You guys are hilarious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
I am fine with seeing charts on screens... with my position and heading showing... And that's all I need. The heading line shows what is in my path... thin water, rocks, buoys and aids to navigation, anchorages, restricted areas, open seas... passing an area of strong currents and so on. THAT is helpful and all I need to have. You can take your routes and shove em as far as I am concerned.
It's clear you drive an Audi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
So it doesn't matter whether you get you positional awareness from a mobile device or a fixed mount plotter. I used a Garmin iQue 3600... a gps enabled PDA (personal desk assistance... remember them?) in the cockpit. It is fabulous.... no waypoints... just a heading line on very sunlight readable BlueSeas charts... stylus touch screen... pan and zoom to any scale. I replaced it with a larger screen Zeus T7... which DOES include waypoints which I don't bother with anyway.
Others use sextants. Good for you and them. It's technology that suits you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
What are waypoints good for? Telling my wife when we will arrive at our destination. Machine computes that based on our current speed and heading thru the water. And that will change so it's a wild and inaccurate guess. I have to "add my input" to the dumb machine... based my my experience... something the idiot machine doesn't have.
Oh boy. The "idiot machine" is obviously not quite understood by the "brilliant user". My machine is much smarter than that. (See your comment above for the likely culprit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Navigation chart plotter technology can be useful... it is mostly a distraction and a toy/game... Buyer beware... use at your own (crew's, guests') peril...

rant over.
Whew. It's over. That was painful.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-15-2016 at 01:45 AM.
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post #146 of 245 Old 08-15-2016
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

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... And that's all I need. The heading line shows what is in my path... thin water, rocks, buoys and aids to navigation, anchorages, restricted areas, open seas... passing an area of strong currents and so on.
This lack of knowledge probably won't kill many people. However it does demonstrate that it is far easier to poke around expertly on a CP than actually know anything about navigation.

I doubt the heading line shows your path. It should be showing your heading: where you are pointed. You will want to examine along the course line for the dangers you list. Warning: they might be behind you. Behind your head that is locked down peering into the snappy new technology.

That right there is the problem. iPad or CP.

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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

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This lack of knowledge probably won't kill many people. However it does demonstrate that it is far easier to poke around expertly on a CP than actually know anything about navigation.

I doubt the heading line shows your path. It should be showing your heading: where you are pointed. You will want to examine along the course line for the dangers you list. Warning: they might be behind you. Behind your head that is locked down peering into the snappy new technology.

That right there is the problem. iPad or CP.
This is true... a heading line is where you would pass if you traveled a rhumb line... or had a GPS driven AP to steer you. What is shows me is a good approximation of what is straight ahead... which I most likely can't do... Getting from here to there is what navigation is about!
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

[QUOTE=smackdaddy;3615273



Whew. It's over. That was painful.[/QUOTE]

You have an attitude issue. You can disagree, but try to find a way polite way to do it. I have been sailing for 31 years... when LoranC came on... and was one of the first to use GPS... a Trimble NavTrac... I do not reject technology by any means. However it appears to me that the technology driven by GPS and micro processors has become a distraction and more like a video game than a useful tool... which has been lost by having more and more bells and whistles. For me this, in a car this represents "distracted" driving... in a boat over kill. I have 8 GPS enabled devices on my boat... 3 dedicated plotters, a handled chart plotter, a fixed mount VHF with GPS and AIS, a handheld VHF with GPS and AIF, 2 smart phones.

have a nice day.
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

3 multi system displays
2ipads with multiple nav programs.
I garmin handheld with garmin charts.
2 handheld VHF with GPS
1 hard wired VHF with GPS
Tough book


No smack have GPS up the wazoo. Not technology adverse. Have had friends and family who are pros, ex navy deck officers, newbies like me, experienced cruisers, untrained friends and family at the wheel. Everyone likes the integral system better. Just easier to use. The other stuff comes out to see if it works. BTW poorly in fog, with cold wet hands, without your cheaters on, when it's bumpy. In fact when using the IPads most rather to wifi link to the RM then run an independent program.
When they come out with one that's 11", truly waterproof and still easy to see and easy to use in all conditions sign me up. Until then it's back up.
You do whatever floats your boat. That's fine. Still think the ergonomics of pad nav presents an increased danger.

s/v Hippocampus
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Re: Do we need a chart plotter at all? Will 2 iPads suffice?

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You have an attitude issue. You can disagree, but try to find a way polite way to do it.......
There is a reason he's been banned at other sites (and temporarily here, iirc). Of course, he blames them.

When he's convinced himself that he's 100% correct, anyone that takes any exception is subject to ridicule. Nice guy.


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