VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX2200... - Page 6 - SailNet Community
 16Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #51 of 56 Old 08-22-2016
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
We must shop at different websites.
I was looking at MSRP. Google shopping shows about $250. Still that is up a lot from the cheaper and poorer splitters of a few years past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You are working hard to keep your beliefs safe from harm.
And here I thought I was keeping an open mind. *grin*

I disagree that 1 dB is trivial, especially for voice. I won't argue the point. The scenario in which it is important just doesn't come up often. There are enough surprises without blowing off a deficit that can be avoided. Life is a compromise and we all make our own choices. Regardless we are best served when we know we are making a compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
A separate antenna mounted on a rail is definitely worse than a shared one mounted on the mast top. Your horizon examples prove that. It becomes particularly so when people hire professionals to install it with cheap coax and Shakespeare connectors.
Which goes directly to your point that not all "professionals" are professionals, or may be working out of their area of expertise.

It also goes to my point about compromises. Comparing ships to tugs to recreational boats, 30 to 50 minutes warning is fine for me. You may want more, so a masthead mount is better. I like the redundancy of a separate antenna away from the mast, so a pushpit or radar pole mount is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Lightning doesn't count as a failure. That most likely would also take out the VHF and all other systems. It is destruction, not failure, and no fault of a splitter.
I agree. That's why I labeled it. Full disclosure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You don't have any experience or knowledge on good splitters besides that which I just taught you yesterday - but you have seen failures of them already?
As I noted early one I have experience with the Vesper splitters and have installed them for customers who requested a splitter. I tell my customers what I think is best and then generally do as they ask (unless there is an explicit safety or regulatory issue).

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Running a separate antenna system to the masthead on most boats is not good because of the separation issue you have brought up.
I obviously agree. Directionality is something few users will notice but definitely hurts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Running a separate antenna to the arch on our boat requires 75' of LMR400 - but it wouldn't fit in the chases anyway. And I don't want the loss in performance the lower height takes away. Running to the spreaders just isn't practical with our rig configuration. The cost of dropping the rig alone, which is required for many people, far exceeds the cost of a splitter.
I rather like RG-214 myself but what the heck? *grin* Being able to make the cable run is obviously an issue. Lots of boats--I'm not saying yours--have a lot of abandoned wiring aboard which makes everything more difficult. I've seen boats with 2" structure for an arch or hard top with a 1/4" hole for wire. Silly.

Dropping the rig for a wire pull to a spreader (or the masthead for that matter is a cost issue. I am personally averse to dropping a rig but for many people its okay. Some folks have a long list of things they want to do the next time the rig comes down and the next project is the tipping point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Being a "professional" does not give a license to stay unchallenged or demand their word stand above others. Above all other professions, the marine industry is chocked full of dangerous idiots and should never be trusted without heavy research.
I definitely agree. I would say that anyone who purports to be a professional should be able to explain an issue in terms his or her customer can understand and provide the supporting footnotes themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Like I said, ours seems to be ~10nm.
Which isn't unexpected between recreational vessels with low mounted antennas over water (no intermediate topographic blockage). Masthead to masthead you really should be doing better. Are there other issues? Singapore-level traffic? I forget where you are.

I have not yet had a chance to write to John and Ben about some deterministic tests. John is the only person I know off the top of my hand who doesn't have a vested interest and does have the test equipment to make measurements. Ben has the contacts to borrow gear to test. The idea is on my tickle list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Your point about taller commercial ships and the longer horizon is valid. Perhaps they have a filter set for class-b that only shows them at 10nm because that is deemed plenty time to deal with them? I know chartplotters have this setting. Like I said, 10nm is routinely the distance commercial shipping seems to notice or respond to us.
I'm just speculating of course. Recreational boats are generally considered unpredictable; I'm not saying you (or me! *grin*) but as a class we behave unpredictably. Ten is a nice round number so I can easily see standing orders that say "any recreational boat within 10 nm do something about." Completely off the wall guess.

When I see a ship at long range (15, 16, 18 miles) when it appears we are heading to a bottleneck and a combination of chartplotter and some math in my head suggests that we are headed to the same place (a commercial inlet, usually) when I call them the response has always been "Yeah we see you." That sure isn't radar on our little fiberglass boats. *grin* It's AIS. Going to the earlier subplot that usually leads to me offering to give way and follow them in. Once in a while something else happens (once an LNG carrier offered to let me in since he was going to snarl things up badly for a while--HUGELY decent of him, sometimes someone knows already that a pilot is going to be late and they have to loiter anyway, and sometimes there is a freakin' parade and I have to work out a way to get in without waiting for a week from Tuesday).

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Of course, we are using a splitter, so most likely that is the problem.
Ha!

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #52 of 56 Old 08-22-2016
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Albany, NY / Baltimore, MD
Posts: 240
Thanks: 46
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Dock
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Even though we don't do the extensive delivery sailing that Auspicious does, we have a transmitting AIS on Haleakula.

We have done a fair amount of night sailing on the Chesapeak and especially below the Bay Bridge where there essentially is no channel, we have been contact by cruise ships, container ships, tugs with barges as we share the same waters and they see us on their displays.

Most of the time it is to ask our intentions, or to note that a 5-10 degree course change on our part will prevent a close encounter of the fourth kind (collision). It is a helpful respectful conversation always.

No talk of stand on vessel, etc as I take Daves approach they are working and it's far easier better for me to make a small course correction temporarily to allow them to continue on. Not necessary to quote rule and verse of the rules of navigation...just use common sense and civility.
We are about to start sailing (Alberg 35) in that area. I'm used to avoiding commercial shipping on the Patapsco and especially near the Key bridge, but we've never been contacted by one of them. Were you contacted often before you transmitted AIS?

BTW... this is a chance to say I really enjoy your posts, you guys are someone we really respect and whose advice we follow!
chef2sail likes this.
Pendragon35 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Pendragon35 For This Useful Post:
chef2sail (08-22-2016)
post #53 of 56 Old 08-22-2016
Senior Member
 
chef2sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 10,433
Thanks: 94
Thanked 198 Times in 190 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon35 View Post
We are about to start sailing (Alberg 35) in that area. I'm used to avoiding commercial shipping on the Patapsco and especially near the Key bridge, but we've never been contacted by one of them. Were you contacted often before you transmitted AIS?

BTW... this is a chance to say I really enjoy your posts, you guys are someone we really respect and whose advice we follow!
Thank you for the kind comments. Love those albergs. Great well made boats

We were never contacted before having AIS. We used to sail a lot in the Patapsco area. We avoided sailing the channel except to cross it as that's where our power boat buddies hang too. They love bouy to bouy on autopilot. As far as the bridge we don't use the center span as a rule.

The issue there on the Baltimore side are the tugs with barges, and the ships docking and leaving docks. Just avoid them. They never contacted us.

Now if you want to be heightened alert go under the Verrezzano bridge where you have lots of traffic. The fast ferries will contact you. The Staten Island Ferry will run you over cursing at you in NY dielect. Stay off to the sides. You cannot relax there.

Look forward to seeing you on the Bay as you learn the area. If you see us hail us. Just try and not f up the name😂😂😂😄😄😄


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
chef2sail is online now  
 
post #54 of 56 Old 08-22-2016
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,865
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Still 1 dB is a 20% power reduction; not as bad as 3 dB (50%) but still not trivial.
…….
I disagree that 1 dB is trivial, especially for voice.
…….
I rather like RG-214 myself
See, here is where I lose track in your argument. You make the statement that 1dB is not trivial and is a bad knock on splitters (most of their specs are <1dB, but let's call it 1dB), then you state you prefer RG-214 over LMR-400.

But RG-214 has 1.3dB loss over LMR-400 for a 100' run (about the size of the run on our boat). So you gladly give up more than 1dB in your choice of coax, but shudder at the thought of giving up <1dB in a splitter?

We are wired with 1/2" Heliax, which has a 2dB advantage over RG-214 for the same run. 2dB!

Why aren't you running Heliax if that 1dB is so precious? You are losing 2dB by not using it.

A 1dB VHF system loss is inconsequential in practice and for all practical purposes.

Mark
Lazerbrains likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #55 of 56 Old 08-23-2016
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
See, here is where I lose track in your argument. You make the statement that 1dB is not trivial and is a bad knock on splitters (most of their specs are <1dB, but let's call it 1dB), then you state you prefer RG-214 over LMR-400.
The source I use for cable shows LMR-400 at 1.2 dB/100' vice RG-214 at 2.3 dB/100' a difference of 1.1 dB/100'. I don't gladly give up that power at all. It pains me. But LMR-400 has a solid core (Cu-clad Al from my source) and RG-214 has a stranded core (and tinned core and braid from my source). I also like the double shield of RG-214. Life is a compromise. Both are better than the RG-8X (3.8 dB/100') that is "standard."

The difference is that I get other characteristics I like by using RG-214 in exchange for more loss. A VHF/AIS splitter inserts loss in exchange for the convenience of a single antenna and more range. Clearly the convenience and range is worth a dB to you and to others; it isn't to me.

I've never seen Heliax on a boat. Very cool. Do you use a jumper to get out of the mast or were you able to get a reasonable bend radius?

I'll get a note off to John today about the detailed tests. I wish we could test more than one unit of each model but I think that is asking too much.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
post #56 of 56 Old 08-23-2016
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,865
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: VHF & AIS OPTIONS: Garmin vhf 200 w Garmin AIS 600 trxcvr vs Standard Horiz GX220

LMR400UF has a stranded core and double shield and is quite flexible.

I'm still twisting in your logic. Giving up a 1.1dB loss in cable choice for some undefined "characteristics" is fine and simply an excepted tradeoff, but giving up <1dB loss in a splitter for longer range (!) makes a splitter a summarily bad thing that people should be professionally and categorically warned away from?

A 1dB VHF system loss is inconsequential in practice and for all practical purposes.

If it isn't, then one should be wiring with far more expensive coax and far better antenna systems - no excuses could possibly be valid otherwise. It certainly cannot be cherry-picked out to damn one category of equipment, while being recommended for a functionally identical category of equipment.

And 100' of RG-214, quality connectors and a good antenna costs the same as, or more than, a good splitter (don't make me make you use google again…). Maybe not for someone like you who can purchase them in bulk and at professional discount, but definitely so for us punters.

So I think we are in agreement now that the previous statements regarding splitters being categorically bad, expensive and lossy were not accurate? And that the most one can say about a splitter is that there is a tradeoff of <20% power output for >50% range increase? And that if one chooses their coax a bit more wisely, a splitter can actually have better power characteristics than a separate system while maintaining the range advantage (and your VHF gains the same to boot)? And that a good argument can be made that use of a splitter can be a better overall system than an isolated system for many applications and boats?

I'm glad you agree with me now.

Heliax has surprising flexibility in radius bend (~2", which is pretty close to RG214, I think) - particularly given that it is essentially a solid copper pipe. So it is possible to bring it out the mast and even into a drip loop. It has a different form of flexibility in that the bends are semi-permanent (they stay bent until straightened). This is both an advantage and disadvantage when running it - it is stiff enough to push through stuff from a long way away, but needs someone to feed it around bends, but can be pushed up into overheads or other dead space and stay there without drooping, etc. One needs to use N-type connectors, though, but the tradeoff there is that those are far easier to install correctly than 259 UHF-types.

The other advantage is "marine professionals" don't know what the eff it is, so that keeps them off our boat. It typically keeps them away from me if I even mention it.

That alone is worth every cent of any extra cost…

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
Reply

Tags
ais , garmin 200 , standard horizon , transceiver , vhf

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
VHF AIS radios foamy General Discussion (sailing related) 39 10-28-2013 01:27 AM
How to connect a Standard Horizon GX2100 AIS VHF to a Raymarine RL-70C plotter GNU Electronics 7 07-22-2013 10:35 PM
Standard Horizon GX2100 AIS VHF erps Electronics 9 01-18-2011 10:13 PM
AIS / VHF combo Snboard976 Gear & Maintenance 9 07-06-2010 01:43 PM
Standard Horizon Matrix AIS VHF radio! downeast450 General Discussion (sailing related) 16 05-05-2010 03:43 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome