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post #91 of 100 Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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"Low toxicity. Ingestion may result in gastrointestinal irritation, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, headache, dizziness and drowsiness with large doses. Liver damage may occur with high level of chronic ingestion."
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post #92 of 100 Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
What you have there isn't pure ethanol it says right on the top ethanol blend blended with what denaturing agent I am referring to pure ethanol
This link may be better. En.wikipedia.org/wiki/ethanol
Huh?? This thread is about ethanol in gasoline. What you refer to as "pure ethanol" doesn't wind up in your fuel tank. Not from a bowser anyway..

The MSDS I linked to might say "Ethanol Blends" at the top but then later on says :

Quote:
INGREDIENTS
CHEMICAL NAME: CAS No: PROPORTION:
Ethanol 64-17-5 >95.5%
Water 7732-18-5 To make up to 100%
Sure, a denaturing agent (most usually methanol) is added at or before the loading gantry in line with government regulations, but it wouldn't be more than 10% - of the 10% of the "Ethanol" that winds up being sold as E10.

In summary: "E10", as you buy it at the bowser, is ordinary ULP (if there is such a thing) containing up to 10% "Ethanol" (it could also, legally, be anywhere between 90% and 100% ULP - but that's a whole separate discussion). That "10% Ethanol" may contain up to 10% methanol and up to 1% water (it might not also) depending on the customer - hardly enough to do any damage on it's own, but worth consideration anyway.

It's worth remembering that someone once said "Oils ain't oils!" - well, guess what, "E10 mix ain't E10" either and will vary widely from 100% gasoline downwards depending upon the time of year, the cost of production and where you buy it from.


EDIT: It seems what we call "E10" over here, you guys call "gasohol"

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post #93 of 100 Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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EDIT: It seems what we call "E10" over here, you guys call "gasohol"
I don't hear "gasohol" much anymore. When ethanol blends were first introduced that was what it was called, but now we just call is "gas."

People didn't really use E10 until there was E85 to differentiate it from.

At least that's how it is in the midwest. I think we were earlier adopters of E10 because it's considered "home grown" around here.

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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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I don't hear "gasohol" much anymore. When ethanol blends were first introduced that was what it was called, but now we just call is "gas."

People didn't really use E10 until there was E85 to differentiate it from.
Same here... E85 is just that 5% worse!

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
At least that's how it is in the midwest. I think we were earlier adopters of E10 because it's considered "home grown" around here.
Talking about "home grown", that Wiki article on Ethanol seemed to imply it's commercially made from sugar cane. Over here anyways, the bulk of it is made from wheat... FWIW.

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post #95 of 100 Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Do you add Seafoam to the gas every time you fill up?
Nope, just a couple of times per season. I doubt that it would hurt anything, besides your wallet.
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post #96 of 100 Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Same here... E85 is just that 5% worse!



Talking about "home grown", that Wiki article on Ethanol seemed to imply it's commercially made from sugar cane. Over here anyways, the bulk of it is made from wheat... FWIW.
Made from wheat is grain ethanol then and that's the same stuff I used to make and drink or add to avgas for racing our driver would drink some Friday and race with the rest saturday. .
ThE point is that the stuff has been around a lot longer than the internal combustion engine and some of the first engines ran on it that in and of itself tells me that its not harming the engine any more than the gasoline which was used as a solvent and cleaner prior to its use as an engine fuel

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post #97 of 100 Old 01-31-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Made from wheat is grain ethanol then and that's the same stuff I used to make and drink or add to avgas for racing our driver would drink some Friday and race with the rest saturday. .
Given that the MSDS for the substance you are referring to as "grain ethanol" reads in part:
Quote:
"Ingestion may result in gastrointestinal irritation, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhoea, headache, dizziness and drowsiness with large doses. Liver damage may occur with high level of chronic ingestion."
Knock yourself out.

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post #98 of 100 Old 01-31-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

Where to start...

E10 is not generally denatured with methanol, because the ASTM specification for fuel ethanol only allows 0.5% methanol. The most common denaturant is simply to add a little bit of gasoline, which will be added later anyway.

Conversation about drinking fuel is only so much sophmoric noise. In fact, in some ways ethanol has made underground gasoline leaks into the environment considerably more troublesome than with MTBE; ethanol increases the solubility of more toxic components like bezene 10-30 times more soluable in water and 10-50 times more difficult to remove with air stripping and carbon.

E10 is subsidized (no fuel tax on ethanol). That is a non-starter for me.

Just mid-West pork, based on effective lobbying and the nature of election politics. Keep up the general budget pressure and the subsidy might go away--that's all I want. More than likely, no subsidy = less E10. There are better oxygenates.
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post #99 of 100 Old 01-31-2014
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

Nice post by pdq.
The only real technical / thermodynamic benefit of adding EtOH to gasoline is that it raises the 'octane number' because it dampens the 'flame speed' of the E10/E15 mixture, therefore less propensity to cause 'pre-ignition' or 'knock' (but you could do the same by injecting the correct amount of 100% water at the proper time).
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
E10 is subsidized (no fuel tax on ethanol). That is a non-starter for me.

Just mid-West pork, based on effective lobbying and the nature of election politics. Keep up the general budjet pressure and the subsidy might go away--that's all I want. More than likely, no subsidy, less E10. There are better oxygenates.
I mostly agree. I have no problem with subsidies, as long as we're subsidizing good things. The market does not account for all externalities, and sometimes the invisible hand can use a little guidance.

But I think ethanol in gasoline is more of a giveaway to big ag-business than it is sound environmental policy. Burning less petroleum is good, but more industrial corn farming (and here in the midwest ethanol = corn) is bad. Ethanol in your tank is part of the cause of the dead zone in the Gulf. Gulf of Mexico 'Dead Zone'

Of course the politics of ethanol policy have no bearing on whether or not it tears up small engines. That's the part I'm not sure about.

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