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post #11 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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E10 is here to stay, so we might as well learn to deal with it.
Why should we?

It is destructive on so many fronts, provides advantage to a special interest at the expense of the general population and their equipment. And costs more to manufacture than any energy it produces.

I think it should be fought, and the requirements to use it repealed, and the EPA restricted from ever imposing such a wrong headed requirement in the first place.

Fight against it, don't accept it, just because the Gov "says so"
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post #12 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Why should we?

It is destructive on so many fronts, provides advantage to a special interest at the expense of the general population and their equipment. And costs more to manufacture than any energy it produces.

I think it should be fought, and the requirements to use it repealed, and the EPA restricted from ever imposing such a wrong headed requirement in the first place.

Fight against it, don't accept it, just because the Gov "says so"
Fine, fight it. But in the meantime we have no option but to deal with it. And that's what my post was about.

And while I share your suspicions about special interests, what do you propose replacing ethanol with? Tetraethyl Lead was a huge catastrophe for air, water, and wildlife. Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether was thought to be the perfect replacement, but ended up leaking into groundwater and destroying drinking water sources for thousands. By comparison, ethanol is pretty attractive.

I'm all for fighting against E15, but E10 has been manageable IMO.

So think before you rant. Ethanol has some positive attributes environmentally. What else would you select as an octane enhancer?

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post #13 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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What else would you select as an octane enhancer?
I would let the MARKET choose a replacement. The gov, for years has made (and continues to make) bad choices as to who(m) the winners will be.

Car makers could easily adjust their cars intake/injection and computers to run on less "enhanced fuel". Methanol could be a choice (my dragster runs on it, and it has less noxious exhaust, runs cooler and cleaner, etc), especially since CO and CO2 are prime ingredients, and if what you say is true about CO2, what better way to recycle that in to Methanol. Alternatively, there are hundreds of compounds that could replace it. Were the gov NOT on the side of big oil, alternative fuels could have been compounded since this first reared it's head in the 1970's, instead of waiting in line and now being beholden to a part of the world that would not hesitate to celebrate our demise.

Not a rant, just an opinion to not fall over for the wants of the gov, especially when it is not in OUR interest to do so.
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post #14 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Originally Posted by matthewwhill View Post
The instructions for my outboard specifically recommend using only ethanol-free gasoline. Around here I know where I can get it, but I imagine that when cruising it will not always be readily available.
This link might be helpful when you're moving around...

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
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post #15 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Originally Posted by kd3pc View Post
I would let the MARKET choose a replacement. The gov, for years has made (and continues to make) bad choices as to who(m) the winners will be.

Car makers could easily adjust their cars intake/injection and computers to run on less "enhanced fuel". Methanol could be a choice (my dragster runs on it, and it has less noxious exhaust, runs cooler and cleaner, etc), especially since CO and CO2 are prime ingredients, and if what you say is true about CO2, what better way to recycle that in to Methanol. Alternatively, there are hundreds of compounds that could replace it. Were the gov NOT on the side of big oil, alternative fuels could have been compounded since this first reared it's head in the 1970's, instead of waiting in line and now being beholden to a part of the world that would not hesitate to celebrate our demise.

Not a rant, just an opinion to not fall over for the wants of the gov, especially when it is not in OUR interest to do so.
I didn't say anything about CO2.

Most of what you suggest would never be accepted by the MARKET because of COST. But unless you know about enthalpy/entropy of reaction and other aspects of the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodyamics, you might not understand why. But I can tell you that the market will not accept $6-$10/gallon gasoline, and that's what your suggestions would likely require. So the market already has had a large say in the option that was selected.

Injection and computers will not take us any further - believe me, that's already been done and has taken us as far as we're going to go with current fuels and compression ratios. There are a lot of technical tradeoffs to consider, and you don't seem to realize that with your post.

I challenge you to list a dozen of the "hundreds of compounds" that could replace ethanol, and then estimate their COST so that the MARKET can decide.

And we are becoming far more energy independent with natural gas - a large part of the reason that gas prices have been decreasing the last several months. I'm not so crazy about the environmental aspects of fracking, but the government has stayed out of the way of that a is letting the MARKET decide.

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post #16 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

Ethanol is one of my (relatively few) hotbuttons. I'm not an expert in this area, but it seems to me...

Pro: Less polluting; enriched a number of politicos with an inside track; less damaging than many octane enhancers.

Cons: Environmentally difficult to produce; increased food prices worldwide; difficult to transport (and refineries typically near crops, making situation worse); damages equipment; carbon-positive (production/refining/distribution offsets pollution reductions).

Does anyone buy the "Ethanol is good" argument? I am not hearing any Ethanol fans on this thread.

But the reality is some people made a LOT of money on the "ethanol boom", and laws are difficult enough to change - with money lobbying against the change (in the US) then nothing is going to happen. So we had better develop a coping strategy. Will I take every opportunity to lobby against ethanol? Sure, this is a democracy (plutocracy actually) so every voice counts. Do I expect any change? No. Not unless another technology appears that will enrich the decision makers.



Keep the advice on "coping strategy" coming. For occasional users of a small outboard, ethanol is a real PITA.
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post #17 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

Two thoughts:

a. Dumping the gas in the car is an impractical option for boats with installed tanks. I've been burning ancient gas in boats since e10 came on the scene, and with proper use of additives, keeping the tank full and a vent drier, have only worked on other folks carbs. That is the answer install boat folks need. For my tender, additive (Biobor EB)m close the tank vent, and an in-line filter. Simple.

b. Off-topic. I hear that Oregon is considering a per-mile tax because the road tax exemption for ethanol has depleted the highway fund. The Federal fund has also been depleted, but quiet funding bills have passed to fix that. Everything has a cost.

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post #18 of 100 Old 11-03-2013
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Originally Posted by paul323 View Post
Ethanol is one of my (relatively few) hotbuttons. I'm not an expert in this area, but it seems to me...

Pro: Less polluting; enriched a number of politicos with an inside track; less damaging than many octane enhancers.

Cons: Environmentally difficult to produce; increased food prices worldwide; difficult to transport (and refineries typically near crops, making situation worse); damages equipment; carbon-positive (production/refining/distribution offsets pollution reductions).

Does anyone buy the "Ethanol is good" argument? I am not hearing any Ethanol fans on this thread.

But the reality is some people made a LOT of money on the "ethanol boom", and laws are difficult enough to change - with money lobbying against the change (in the US) then nothing is going to happen. So we had better develop a coping strategy. Will I take every opportunity to lobby against ethanol? Sure, this is a democracy (plutocracy actually) so every voice counts. Do I expect any change? No. Not unless another technology appears that will enrich the decision makers.



Keep the advice on "coping strategy" coming. For occasional users of a small outboard, ethanol is a real PITA.
I agree completely, and I do have real ethical concerns about food production being diverted to fuel, and about ethanol's increased carbon footprint from the increased refining steps (removing water in the concentration step is energy-intensive) and transportation (has to be trucked separately instead of pumped through the pipeline).

Although I am bothered by how certain politically connected people get a disproportionate benefit from the ethanol economy, the fact is that the market for octane enhancers is so huge that whatever additive was chosen would benefit a relatively few people disproportionately. The most viable alternative may be to move to alternative technologies like diesel (no octane enhancer needed), electric, hydrogen, etc. But, of course, every one of those has its own lobbyists who are ready to buy out as many politicians as they can.

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Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

My two cents worth: I can only speak from my experience. Since ethanol was first introduced I have used this in anything that burns gas:

Fuel Additives / Treatments | Berryman Products

Other than one case where I forgot to drain the float bowl on one of my outboards, I have not had any fuel related problems.

I keep the same treated gas in my generator for a year, changing it once a year. It starts right up and runs fine on the old gas. On my snow blower, outboard, & generator, I always drain the float bowl between uses over two weeks or so, when I don't forget.

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post #20 of 100 Old 01-23-2014
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Question Re: Ethanol in gasoline questions

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Well in most areas in the US it is hard to get, even at marine suppliers. The only place I know of that you can really constantly get it, is airports.
This was the same recommendation a friend of mine made, to purchase high octane, ethanol free aviation fuel. I could purchase at a premium at some specialty marine suppliers or at a local airport. He said it would greatly reduce the clogging of carborators, specifically when speaking to small (2.5-4hp) outboards. Can anyone provide feedback to this?


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