Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets? - Page 4 - SailNet Community
 32Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 60 Old 05-27-2016
Senior Member
 
Daveinet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,148
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsCAL View Post
!!!!! That's downright scary.
It makes a great anchor line though...

But seriously, I was well within the breakage rating. Its really a problem with the weave. On the cheap rope, the core is unwoven. Only the outside layer is woven, so when it is pulled super tight, it looses its shape, even though it is not close to breaking. I would suggest that that if the rope was twisted, it would not have this characteristic.

A quick search on rope shows there are a couple of different types of braided rope. The least expensive does not have a core, or the core is not woven. It cost much more to have a woven core, or what is called braid on braid. I would suggest that twisted rope would work just fine for halyards, as you are not handling it often, an would not care about the rough surface. If you can find braided jacket with twisted core, that should work just fine as well. Its only the rope with an unwoven core that is going to change its shape under load. If the line is going to be looped around a cleat, you don't care what the core is, only the break strength. If you need to run it through a cam cleat, then the core matters - and even then, only under extreme conditions. If the rope is well oversized for the task, it would not loose its dimensional integrity anyway.

I would suggest you can use what ever rope you want, but just need to pay attention to how it is woven, compared to the task it is required to perform. Just because you bought it from a Marine store only means they have done the homework for you. However, if you pay attention to what you are buying, it matters not where you buy it.

Dave
RL 24 NEW to me April 25th 2014
AFC 17' 2+2 (sold in 2012)
Hobie 14'
Sunfish project boat

Sailing a large boat on a small lake is very tacky.
Daveinet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 60 Old 05-30-2016 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 1,660
Thanks: 123
Thanked 42 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Though I have found cheaper prices here and there, these guys are among the best all-round value I've found...

Cajunrope.com - Home
Thanks, Smack. I know of them and they seem to be good folks with a good product. I remember I seriously considered them last time i bought new halyard more than a decade ago. That they are still around shows speaks for them.
MastUndSchotbruch is online now  
post #33 of 60 Old 05-30-2016 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 1,660
Thanks: 123
Thanked 42 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
If the cost of buying the correct line is too expensive then the cost of buying the wrong line and later replacing it with the correct line will be doubly expensive. 3.5% stretch with a 50kg load is 21 inches on a 50 foot halyard.
OP here, again. Will try to summarize.

Thanks to ALL for your insights. I have learned a lot from this thread and it helps me to make a better decision. I also did some amount of additional googling. One well-written analysis is by Beth Leonhard and Evans Starzinger. It may be of interest to some others, so here is the link: http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/rightlinejob.pdf

You have convinced me that using this arborist rope for my main/jib halyards would not be a good idea. However, I will still buy a couple hundred feet for other purposes:

One is for a spi halyard. As Beth and Evans point out, some stretch on that is even advantageous, to deal with shock loads. The same applies to the mainsheet and the traveller lines (although I obviously won't need 100' for this purpose).

Another application I have is for a spare halyard. Last time I had the stick down I installed a block at the mast top as a spare, just in case. I have never used it and I may never need it, but boy would I be glad to have it if I did. In such a case, I doubt that I would worry about a couple inches of stretch in the line.

What I don't know is whether this line will prematurely degrade with exposure to salt (not so much an issue here on the upper Chessie) and UV. This is a risk I will take.

So, that's my plan. I will scratch the idea of using it for jib sheets or main/jib halyards but there seem to be viable applications. And I will save a sizable fraction of a boot buck doing so.

Again, thanks for the informative discussion!
MedSailor likes this.
MastUndSchotbruch is online now  
 
post #34 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Bar Harbor, ME
Posts: 416
Thanks: 39
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Get 10 feet more than you think you'll need. Its easy to cut it, impossible to add it. And yes you can never have too much line. I have a bunch of polyester lobster line, simply for that reason.
Zarathu is offline  
post #35 of 60 Old 05-30-2016 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 1,660
Thanks: 123
Thanked 42 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
Get 10 feet more than you think you'll need. Its easy to cut it, impossible to add it. And yes you can never have too much line. I have a bunch of polyester lobster line, simply for that reason.
Good thought, and already taken care of The line comes in hanks of 100' and for my halyards I need about 80+, so there is a built-in safety factor.
MastUndSchotbruch is online now  
post #36 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
Senior Member
 
pdqaltair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 3,524
Thanks: 4
Thanked 119 Times in 117 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
Just for information, "Kernmantel" is just the German word for double-braid and is also used for lines on a boat.
Incorrect. Kernmatle as used by climbers has a laid interior with 50% LH and 50% RH cords. Very different.


Writing full-time since 2014
Author--Rigging Modern Anchors

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Keeping a Cruising Boat for Peanuts"
"Faster Cruising for the Coastal Sailor"
"Singlehanded Sailing for the Coastal Sailor"
pdqaltair is online now  
post #37 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,266
Thanks: 1
Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 16
   
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

OP,

I did not read article. BUT, some places it is good to have stretch, others not. Halyards and sheets "GENERALLY" speaking, do not want stretch. As this will bag out a sail, cause it to not be the shape you want, which leads to more heeling, slowing down etc. Less stretch keeps the sail in shape, which in turn with gusts causes LESS heeling and speed loss. A stretch line for a Main boom lift/holder is not a big deal. I would not want a stretchy line as I pointed out a few posts back, for any kind of running rigging. Anchors, dock lines, mountain climbing etc.....no big. I use my older climbing line to go up the mast. But would not use it for running rigging etc. UNLESS, offshore, only way back a day or three or more later, then use what you have!


marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is offline  
post #38 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
S/V Wyndwitch - Morgan 24
 
oysterman23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: South Shore LI. NY
Posts: 469
Thanks: 452
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

i rigged my halyards with samson xls extra T and they were worth the cost for my cruising boat. But I put an extra halyard in using New England ropes Sta-set and had it rigged with my jib the other day. There was no question the extra T had less stretch. To keep my jib flat in blustery conditions it was necessary to load up the halyard quite a bit more than when using the extra T. Im sure if I had any warpspeed on the boat Id notice that improvement in similar conditions. But Ive sailed plenty on boats rigged with dacron three strand and it used to get us where we needed to go....But you bet the new lines are better. I still prefer nylon strand or braid for docklines and springs (eases shock on the cleats etc) and like dyneema for my outhall and a few other spots where minimal stretch and slender strength is helpful.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

Last edited by oysterman23; 05-30-2016 at 03:41 PM.
oysterman23 is offline  
post #39 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans Louisiana
Posts: 3,264
Thanks: 10
Thanked 140 Times in 134 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

The only place where I think stretch is a good thing would be dock/anchor lines. It has no place in halyards or sheets at all.

Nothing worse then a gust hitting the sails and the extra load stretched the lines, causing the boat to now be overpowered from the deeper draft sails that you have been trying to trim out.


Sure stretchy line will work, but as a severe compromise.
overbored likes this.

Greg
Stumble is offline  
post #40 of 60 Old 05-30-2016
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 06420
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Can I use arborist rope for halyards and sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
I have the opportunity to buy new arborist rope at a good price. It is double braided polyester rope made by a reputable company (New England) with a sufficient breaking strength (5000 lb for 1/2" rope). And, of course, arborist rope is static, it is not dynamic rope for climbers.

Is there any reason I could not use this for halyards? And maybe the 5/8" version for sheets? This is for a 32' boat, coastal sailing. And I am obviously not a racer...

Thanks
Truly, it does not matter whether you are a racer or not. Use the right stretch and strength for the right purpose. That arborist line looks too stretchy.

If, rather, _when_ you get caught in a blow and have to de-power your sail, a stretchy halyard will ruin your day. The sail (main or jib) will power up in a puff and you can get knocked down.

On the other hand, if your mast bend does not automatically depower your main, you may want a little stretch in the boom vang (kicker) to allow twist in a puff.

Also, 1/2 inch is a bit on the large side, your blocks and clutches may not accept that and will cause you trouble.

As a point of reference, West marine has 3/8" Sta-set line with a 5100 pound breaking strength, and 10100 pound at 1/2". That line is listed with an average stretch of 1 to 2%. This means that at full hoist, the halyard might stretch 6 to 12 inches. If reefed, it will stretch further (you have more halyard running up & then back down the mast) You should think about a more high-performance ultra-low stretch line for the halyard even for inshore sailing. I've been caught in a weather change too many times.
Peter06420 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rub strake for sheets/halyards? Tanley General Discussion (sailing related) 4 05-28-2015 05:14 AM
rope & wire halyards vs all rope halyards kjango Gear & Maintenance 20 03-02-2013 02:16 PM
washing halyards / line / sheets Survivor Gear & Maintenance 18 08-18-2008 01:32 PM
Knot usage for sheets and halyards Zanshin Gear & Maintenance 55 05-15-2007 08:35 AM
Knot usage for sheets and halyards Zanshin Gear & Maintenance 8 04-25-2007 09:35 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome