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post #21 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
If you splice a covered donee ma line the way you splice sta-set it will not have close to the breaking strength it should, the buried core will slip out under load long before the line gets close the breaking strength. These lines require the buried core to be buried inside the original core to clamp down on it as load is applied.

This is exactly why different splices for these lines were developed.
So your saying a .75" sheet in dyneema will break before a polyester line spliced the same way under the same application and same load....

Hey Cappy never mind stay with the stay set it's stronger!

Last edited by rckfd; 06-09-2016 at 01:27 PM.
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post #22 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

If going from 3/4" to 1/2" would require replacing rope clutches, I wouldn't do it. Stick with the fat, rubbery, line.

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post #23 of 35 Old 06-09-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Jib sheets

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Lewmar 65ST's are rated from 8-18mm line the 3/4" is actually too large for your winches (3/4"=19mm). Obviously it has been working, but stepping down in size to a stronger line would be preferable.
OK, let's say just for argument's sake that this old tree is bending a tiny bit (5/8" not 1/2"), what line would you recommend?
Having spent the last 2 hours or so getting only about 6 pages to load, my research is not going well. In fact, the computer very nearly went swimming, saved only by my wife's quick action.
I will still have to deal with the splicing, but that can wait.

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post #24 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

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OK, let's say just for argument's sake that this old tree is bending a tiny bit (5/8" not 1/2"), what line would you recommend?
Having spent the last 2 hours or so getting only about 6 pages to load, my research is not going well. In fact, the computer very nearly went swimming, saved only by my wife's quick action.
I will still have to deal with the splicing, but that can wait.
It depends on how price sensitive you are. Since it sounds like you have some slow internet issues I will condense a few things down from other sources here to try and make it a little quicker than sending you to all the sources.

To make things a little easier I have tried to stick with the same strength line, though in reality sheets are normally sized for stretch not strength, which makes the dyneema lines far stronger than they really need to be, with less stretch than sta-set would exhibit.

Line ............... MBL (lbs) ... Price /ft ....... Where
5/8 sta-set...... 17,000 ...... 2.73 ............ West marine
1/2 Maxibraid.. 20,000 ...... 3.42 ............ Hall Spar
7/16 Endurabraid 15,000 ... 4.05 ............ Hall Spar

3/4 sta-set...... 23,500 ...... 4.34 ............ West Marine
9/16 Maxibraid..22,000 ..... 4.07 ............ Hall Spar
1/2 Endurabraid 21,500 ..... 5.25 ............ Hall Spar

I did not shop these prices, or see if you could get a deal somewhere. Likely if you have to order it it would make sense to look at buying a 1/2 spool (300') of whatever it is. Discounts on a half spool can be as high as 50% so it's worth investigating.

The major difference in the endurabraid and the Maxibraid are in the type of dyneema used. The endura uses a higher grade that is stronger, and a slightly different weave that makes it more resistant to snags. But I have used both to good effect.


Splicing dyneema cored line (called Class 2) is different than splicing polyester lines (class 1) because the cover provides none of the strength, it's just there to protect the core. But there are two ways to make an eye in it, they are the same strength, but the better one never exposes the core to the sun, with the other it is. on the other hand the better one is much harder to perform.

Better http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/...UG2012_WEB.pdf this btw is the slowest website I have seen in a long time. Sorry.

Reasonable option
1) taper about 5' of the core out. ( Splicing Guide - Tapering the Cover on High-Tech Ropes )
2) make an eye splice in the now raw dyneema, just like splicing amsteel (this is the easiest splice in the world to get right). http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/...Splice_WEB.pdf

Personally I taper then eye splice, this lasts about five years at which point I just cut off the end and redo it on the other end.

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post #25 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

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So your saying a .75" sheet in dyneema will break before a polyester line spliced the same way under the same application and same load....

Hey Cappy never mind stay with the stay set it's stronger!
Seriously?

I have no idea at what load a 3/4" improperly spliced endurabraid line would unravel, no one does. But why in gods name would you spend a huge amount of money on a line and then splice it wrong?

Polyester lines (class 1) and dyneema lines (class 2) are different, which is why they each have different splicing methods. The material is different, the load distribution is different, the length of the bury is different, the loads are different, even the weave pattern is different. So why would you assume that the splicing method would be the same?

Class 1 lines share the load equally between the cover and the core, so class 1 splices are designed to evenly share the load between the cover and the core. They are load balancing splices that intentionally shift the load from the core to the other cover and vice a verse.

Class 2 lines DO NOT share the load. The entire load of the line is carried by the core, and so splices designed for class 2 lines DO NOT load balance, the load stays in the core thru the entire splice then back into the standing core with a long smooth taper. The cover is just there for uv and abrasion resistance, it provides no structural strength.

To suggest that the fact that you can't splice a class 2 rope the way you splice a class 1 rope is somehow a failing is to show a profound lack of understanding about either.

And btw Class 2 splices are far easier than class 1 splices. But you can't use them on class 1 ropes either. Because of the load balancing issues.

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post #26 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

I was curious so want and looked it up, your 100% (550sq foot) jib would generate 1,500lbs in 25kn of breeze climbing to 3,000lbs if the sail is double the fore triangle area.

Assuming something between those two, let's assume the actual load is 2,500lbs. At this load the amount of stretch is interesting (for a definition of interesting that only may apply to me).

Sta-set stretches at a rate of .1% length per 1% MBL, while dyneema stretched at .03% length per 1% MBL.

Line ............... MBL (lbs) ... % MBL ... Stretch ... Effect 50' (300") sheet
5/8 sta-set...... 17,000 ...... 15 .......... 1.5% .......... 4.5"
1/2 Maxibraid.. 20,000 ...... 12 .......... .36% .......... 1"
7/16 Endurabraid 15,000 ... 16 .......... .48% .......... 1.4"

3/4 sta-set...... 23,500 ...... 11 .......... 1.1% .......... 3.30"
9/16 Maxibraid..22,000 ..... 11 ........... .33% .......... .99"
1/2 Endurabraid 21,500 ..... 12 .......... .36% .......... 1.1"


For what it's worth, I am guessing that what you have is actually 5/8. 3/4 would be pretty oversized unless you have a very big headsail. Typically you try to keep the expected load to about 10% the MBL of the line to limit stretch to 1% or so.

With dyneema you could actually go far smaller and keep the same stretch, but I wouldn't get below a 5:1 safety margin (strength:expected load).

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post #27 of 35 Old 06-09-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

Stumpy Silly boy you think I'm going to read all that!
You clearly are missing the point the man aint looking to kill gnats with howitzers he don't want to look up things (thats what your for) he don't want to learn new things. Bottom line .625 line will do what he wants he can splice it the way he has been doing it all his life and nothing will break and he'll have all the extra time to chase native girls up and down the beach.
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post #28 of 35 Old 06-10-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Jib sheets

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Stumpy Silly boy you think I'm going to read all that!
You clearly are missing the point the man aint looking to kill gnats with howitzers he don't want to look up things (thats what your for) he don't want to learn new things. Bottom line .625 line will do what he wants he can splice it the way he has been doing it all his life and nothing will break and he'll have all the extra time to chase native girls up and down the beach.
Dude, it ain't laziness. It's taken me 7 hours to load this thread!
I ain't sittin in a duct taped easy chair with my hat on backwards, drinkin a Bud, tapping keys on a high speed internet connected computer watching NASCAR on the tube.
Nope, I'm in a bay where I can't even buy internet access. Well, that's not exactly true. Sandals will sell us internet access for us$90.00 a day!
So I asked for help. What's it to you?

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“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” ― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

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post #29 of 35 Old 06-10-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

Duuuuuuuuude
I wasn't getting down on you I was poking the stick at the chest beating self proclaim official getting down on me about how to splice. Now as far as the comment about arm chair quarter backing let me just point out the last three years that I was down in the Caribbean lets see how many posts have I made Hmmmm 0 you somewhere around 2000 and in the last six months I've been back me 132 and you hmmmmmm 300. So Buddy who's sitting on the duct tape exactly?
Oh by the way why don't you know what rope to get anyway? I know without looking up which lines I'd need for my vessel how to splice them without looking it up online and how to trim it properly without looking it up online. I also can make to where you're sitting with just a chart, compass and a watch without looking it up online. And I do it all on a little 32 foot boat HA!
So Duuuuuuuuuude chill I'm getting back to my refit I should be back in the water in a week or two and once again I'll be gone...

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post #30 of 35 Old 06-10-2016
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Re: Jib sheets

Capta, no doubt you've experienced new cordage that doesn't remotely feel like broken in cordage. For that matter, I've found very different hand feel from the same cordage of dramatically different sizes.

I switched from Sta-Set to XLS a few years back. The 1/2" and smaller stuff, on the main sheet and furlers, I had no problem with. I use 5/8" for our jib sheets (Harken 66 winches) and initially hated the stuff. I literally had to take sand paper to the line.

I bought the XLS because practical sailor did a test and found it to have good feel and among the longest lasting line. Since I hated it, the fact that it would last longer became ironic. As it's broken in, I find it perfectly acceptable, but the Sta-Set was better out of the box. I will say that the XLS has, in fact, held up better. Nevertheless, I would probably replace those sheets with Sta-Set next time, as the break in was annoying.

That is, if my wife doesn't insisted upon warpspeed. I decide to load a smaller diameter line on my main furler, which I could do with a modern spectra core, and get the same strength as the OEM spec. Turns out she loves the line. It's very expensive and the only one on the boat (other than halyards, which are rarely handled). While I haven't used it on the jib sheets to know, it's a bit stiffer and I'm willing to bet wouldn't hockle as much (assuming you flake).

I looked up the Lewmar 65ST. You may have an older model, but the current are rated for 8mm to 18mm line. That would make 3/4" line just a tad too big. I think all your options are open. Good luck on the decision, I've been there many times, stressing over cordage.


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