Using Aerogel for insulation. - SailNet Community
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Old 01-18-2017 Thread Starter
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Using Aerogel for insulation.

Just a little video I made when I was upgrading a deep freeze.

I only used the Aerogel for the door because this stuff is expensive! The box was done with Polyiso and XPS blueboard/pinkboard for a total of R40.

The door has about 100$ worth of Aerogel , thatís Canadian $ and includes the shipping .

Enjoy.


Regards John Tully
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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

Overkill,
so are you here as a vendor looking to make a buck? or give free advice like I do from 40+ years in the HVAC biz?
Because what you are selling is already available to the diy boat owners from known companies like Engle, Donetic, Seafrost and others. I wonder
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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

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Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
Overkill,
so are you here as a vendor looking to make a buck? or give free advice like I do from 40+ years in the HVAC biz?
Because what you are selling is already available to the diy boat owners from known companies like Engle, Donetic, Seafrost and others. I wonder

I am in the business , yes , but on here more to help when ever I can . I have also installed LifePO4 batteries and numerous other projects .

Regards John Tully


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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

Jeez, he simply posted a how-to video using mostly Home Depot materials. Why are you questioning his motives on this? He has identified himself as a vendor of marine refrigeration, but has not refused yet to give any advice without pay. Almost everything sold by any company is already available from other companies - that doesn't make new entries into the market illegitimate.

Why don't you wait until he actually does something that you think is wrong before trying to hang him out to dry?

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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Jeez, he simply posted a how-to video using mostly Home Depot materials. Why are you questioning his motives on this? He has identified himself as a vendor of marine refrigeration, but has not refused yet to give any advice without pay. Almost everything sold by any company is already available from other companies - that doesn't make new entries into the market illegitimate.

Why don't you wait until he actually does something that you think is wrong before trying to hang him out to dry?

Mark
That would be the pre-wash cycle on the forum washing machine.
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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

Aerogel is a bit expensive and the partial board outer and latex paint is not going to hold up very long on a boat inside a cooler and will attract mold. I would not be recommending particle board in a cooler to anyone. a refrigeration pro should know wood and refrigeration don't get along.
I have made one using a solid block of poly styrene foam from an old dock float the marina was tossing. cost zero. then cut and sanded to shape. I applied a layer of surf board cloth and epoxy resin. pretty much mold proof. cost about $25.

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Last edited by overbored; 01-18-2017 at 01:22 PM.
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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

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Aerogel is a bit expensive and the partial board outer and latex paint is not going to hold up very long on a boat inside a cooler and will attract mold. I would not be recommending particle board in a cooler to anyone. a refrigeration pro should know wood and refrigeration don't get along.
I have made one using a solid block of poly styrene foam from an old dock float the marina was tossing. cost zero. then cut and sanded to shape. I applied a layer of surf board cloth and epoxy resin. pretty much mold proof. cost about $25.

Yes I agree it does seem like over kill but this is a door for a deep freeze. I really didn't want it to be 6 inches thick . At that thickness you have to lift it out , a hinged top is tough. . In the tropics you need every btu you can get to stay in the box ! Thats if you want to be able to manage the power requirements.
Also I tried, and used two part polyurethane paints many times in boxes and they off gas for weeks if not months so I had to find something else that worked and would not make all my food taste like paint thinner.
The new breed of acrylic paints are amazing ! I have used this stuff on all sorts of things , even under a dinghy . They are much better then they use to be. Since all this water-borne stuff has taken over to lower the VOC , these paints have improved. I have never had any issue with mold at all and these paints don't off gas , so no bad taste until it all cures .

These are just doors and as long as you use the vapour barrier and keep a good coat of paint on them , you will have no problem for many years , the doors I removed were wood enclosure's and there was no signs of water damage at all , and they didn’t even use a vapour barrier. I would never build a box like this but for a top door its just fine

I will be sharing the box build video soon , still editing it .

Regards John Tully
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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

These "gotta super insulate" Boat Refrigeration box discussions? (and there are more then a few) Seem to send a message that if you don't have a super insulated box in your boat it's hopeless; which just is not true!

Commercial walk in boxes only have around R-25 foam in the panels. I just helped out a friend with her new to the building that she just opened as a bar and restaurant in the City. One was a refrigerator 38* the other a freezer. -25* (Brrrr!) (* for degrees)

Back to boat boxes.
Most or many boats seem to have polyethylene boxes with foam on the outside.


1" of foam is good, 1.5" better 2" is great. 3-4" is overkill (cost vs return on $)

Now.. if you must upgrade the box insulation, the BOTTOM (plug the drain) needs the most insulation, the sides next and top.. not as much but the LID needs air tightness.

The 12/24 volt units made by many mfg's are extremely efficient and came on the market in the early 80's (not sure on the date) prior to that, we had engine driven units. BIG holding plates, even belt driven compressors driven with a 48,32, 24, or 12 volt motors. Back in the day, running on the house bank is where the "fear" of using too many amps comes from.

If you have a reasonably well insulated box, you can use a newer 12/24 volt unit BECAUSE they use so little electric to do what they do, and they can run nearly 24 hrs and still not kill a a battery unlike the "old days"

If you have a box that keeps ice for 2-4 days you will probably be ok with a new 12/24 volt unit.

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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

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Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
1" of foam is good, 1.5" better 2" is great. 3-4" is overkill (cost vs return on $)
Foam is cheap as chips. Where does this extra cost come from when adding more? I don't agree with your thickness assessment, especially given that many boat boxes are against hot areas - engine room bulkheads, hull sides, tropic environments, etc. The calculation of heat transfer is pretty straightforward, and that 2" doesn't cut it for almost any practical boat installation.

Depending on box size and compressor, the electrical draw will be 4-6A. Running 24hrs/day, this is 96-144A - hardly just a "little electric" for most boats.

We have 6" of polyurethane insulation in a spillover box split into 4cf freezer and 6cf reefer powered by a single air-cooled Danfoss BD50 driving a thin aluminum evaporator plate surrounding 3/4 of the freezer compartment with a spillover fan to the reefer controlled by a thermostat. This is an off-the-shelf AB (now Waeco) system. It is in use 24/7 because we live aboard full-time. The reefer is kept at 34F and the freezer at 10F - both with a 5F hysteresis. The compressor uses 4-7A when running depending on the load and speed (it self-adjusts).

In the US/Bahamas where we are now with temperatures high 70's-low 80's, we use 40-50Ahr/day. In the equatorial tropics with temps high 90's, we use 50-60Ahr/day. I have a power monitor dedicated to it, so these are actual numbers and not guesses.

I have no doubt that our electrical efficiency is mostly due to that 6" of insulation, and no doubt that 2" would see us struggling mightily to run that system in that box in these environments. The rest of the efficiency is due to having a good flow of cool air over the condenser.

Everyone I have met with 2" of foam insulation - even with small boxes - are using so much electricity that they are struggling to keep it powered.

You will probably disagree with the following statement, and I suspect Coldeh will also, but IMO box insulation, design and placement is 85% of the electrical side of refrigeration. 10% of the remaining is removing heat from the condenser. All the other mechanical stuff like evaporator plate vs. holding plate, type of compressor, TXV vs. cap tube, etc is wandering around in the weeds.

So, a well insulated box with plenty of cool airflow over the condenser will get you 95% of the electrical efficiency possible. If those extra lost 5Ahr/day are killing you, then throw up a small solar panel before investing in expensive stuff like water cooling.

Mark

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Re: Using Aerogel for insulation.

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
....particle board.....
It's best mission is to fill landfills.
It's garbage board.
Nor do you want mdf onboard for cabinetry, etc.
The environment vs lumber engineered 'for interior use' = no loses for environment.
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