Not Getting the All-Chain Thing - Page 25 - SailNet Community
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post #241 of 535 Old 10-16-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Deina View Post
Bryce, you're all over the place! Originally your hypothetical was a windlass jam while retrieving the anchor, now it's a dragging anchor?

When presented with reasonable questions seeking clarification of your scenario all you can do is modify the conditions and hurl insults?

I suspect you’re the one lacking in experience here.
No specifically, you have 3 minutes because you are dragging toward shore. This dragging could be the result of retrieving or the anchor lets loose. If you were not dragging, you would have more than 3 minutes correct? And no this is not an insult..

Just because one does not have experience, is not an insult..

From my standpoint, the scenario was a rhetorical question and did not require an answer. Rather it was meant to show how things can quickly go wrong.. it takes me about 45 seconds to bring up the anchor and stow it. So I would have about 2 min, 15 seconds to clear the jam.

Perhaps if I had to use the engine, I would reverse it and spin the the boat away from the line. No chance to wrap the line in the prop.

And yes.. there are all kinds of things I have not experienced..
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 10-16-2017 at 09:25 PM.
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post #242 of 535 Old 10-16-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

I guess I'm in the ancient mariner category, which is kinda neat. Fortunately, I've never experienced a jammed windlass, never fouled my prop on the anchor line, but I have managed to drag anchor more than I would like to admit - even with more scope out than necessary - $hit happens!

I sincerely hope that everyone here gets to join the Ancient Mariners Sailing Club, for which I have a neat Tee shirt that barely fits anymore because of the medications ancient mariners sometime have to endure. My loving wife, however, said it's all that Jim Beam Honey Bourbon I consume, which reminds me, I have to stop at the local liquor store tomorrow - 15 percent off on Tuesdays.

Have a fun night, everyone,

Gary
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post #243 of 535 Old 10-17-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Paul - I'm curious, how much chain do you carry for this type of anchoring? And what is your "trusted scope"?
325 ft of 10m(3/8) chain. I never anchor in those depths if there is a good alternative. Many areas in the South Pacific there is no alternative. You take the scope that you can get. Scope rules for 10ft depths really do not apply to 50ft depths.

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread, but another reason for all chain is when you are forced to use a short scope due to obstructions like close packed boats or reefs or in the case we are anchored in now: 47ft of water with 150ft out, 25kt wind, and unable to let anymore out because the harbour patrol will not let you go any further back into the ship channel. Again, there's no alternative here right now.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
Perhaps if you are dragging towards any shore, your anchor cannot be set correct?

I have not put you in this jam, you are simply presented with a scenario, perhaps you have no solution. Rather you insist to complain that it is not realistic in your area. Perhaps go to an area in the world where it is real.

I did not specify weather it jamed at the splice or not. And you suggesting you have never jamed a windlass? Really...

The scenario is clearly meant to illustrate how dangerous situations come about. It is not the jam, or the current or the close shore that individually creates the issue. Rather it is the combination of many issues that causes the problem.

If you do not know that you cannot engage your engine because your anchor will be dragged under by the current, you are in trouble.

If you have never experienced the scenario, then you have not the experience.. just say so.

Anchoring in tidal currents in the ICW is such a common situation, we can only come to a conclusion you have no experience doing this. So how can you argue this is not realistic.

Just because you are anchored in a tidal current, does not mean you are anchored in a main channel. Quite the contrary, the ICW looks like Swiss cheese in many places, so you are not in any main channel. Furthermore, the ICW itself can have huge tidal currents due to all the inlets having different high tide times.

Bryce
Your scenarios just keep getting more outrageous with every post. Now you've got me dragging anchor at 5 knots in a 5 knot current with a sandbar 1/4 mile downstream of me and my anchor and chain are so light they are going to get sucked right off the bottom into my screw as soon as I put the engine in gear.

Your solution to this problem (yes, this is your problem, because I wouldn't put myself in this situation, but obviously you would), is to spin your anchored Catalina 40 around 180 degrees through a 5 knot current and back the boat through the current.

You are saying you have had this experience? What kind of propulsion did you have to get your stern swung around against that current? How did your boat respond when she was beam to the 5 knot current with an anchor hanging off the bow? Were you single handed? Were you able to leave the helm unattended while backing through a 5 knot current so you could go forward and clear the jam? That's some fancy boat driving.

Yes, I say so, I have never experienced this scenario.

By the way, if my anchor is dragging with the boat, along the bottom at 5 knots, then as soon as I bring the boat up to 5 knots through the water (0 over the ground), my motion relative to the anchor will be nil. I'll just be holding station, as will the anchor.

Edit: if these are just rhetorical questions and you don't want me to actually respond to them, it probably isn't necessary to quote me in your post and pose the question directly at me.
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Last edited by Arcb; 10-17-2017 at 08:18 AM.
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post #245 of 535 Old 10-17-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

[QUOTE=BryceGTX;2051248153

If you consider your anchor the most important safety equipment, why not chose a 150 pound Rocna.. 88 sounds kinda small.. as you say, weight is no issue. BTW, I have a friend with an 88 Rocna and chain... he has dragged.

BTW.. check out that extra hole on the end of your Rocna.. That's to double end a Danforth when you need extra holding power.
Bryce[/QUOTE]
An anchor, as with many other items on a sailboat including the mast, standing rigging, the running rigging and the sails must be a complete system, matched to give maximum performance versus weight and ease of handling. A 150# Rocna would require 3/4" or larger chain and a suitable windlass. My #1 anchoring system, is a complete unit with all parts of relatively equal breaking strength and holding power.
As for "that extra hole on the end of your Rocna", I'm afraid you've got that all wrong Bryce old buddy, way, way wrong. That extra hole on the end of my Rocna" is for a line to extricate the Rocna should it get stuck under a rock or ledge. Since I rarely anchor in that sort of bottom, I do not often secure the release line, but we do have one onboard should we wish to use it. If you look closely at your Danforth, if it is a genuine Danforth it should have a similar hole or fixture point.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that your way is better and that all the weight I carry is pointless, but I challenge you to anchor for some 1000 days consecutively all over the eastern Caribbean with your system and then get back to me about how successful it is.
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post #246 of 535 Old 10-17-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Paul_L View Post
325 ft of 10m(3/8) chain. I never anchor in those depths if there is a good alternative. Many areas in the South Pacific there is no alternative. You take the scope that you can get. Scope rules for 10ft depths really do not apply to 50ft depths.

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread, but another reason for all chain is when you are forced to use a short scope due to obstructions like close packed boats or reefs or in the case we are anchored in now: 47ft of water with 150ft out, 25kt wind, and unable to let anymore out because the harbour patrol will not let you go any further back into the ship channel. Again, there's no alternative here right now.
Got it. That makes sense.

On your second point, that's been one primary part of this discussion. A mixed rode with 25m of chain or so gives you "all chain" in many anchoring conditions with the advantages of rope rode behind that. So in this scenario you mention, you'd have all chain where it counts - and give your anchor less shock loading than a snubber would.

Just different ways to skin the turtle. Thanks for the feedback.
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post #247 of 535 Old 10-18-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Your scenarios just keep getting more outrageous with every post. Now you've got me dragging anchor at 5 knots in a 5 knot current with a sandbar 1/4 mile downstream of me and my anchor and chain are so light they are going to get sucked right off the bottom into my screw as soon as I put the engine in gear.

Your solution to this problem (yes, this is your problem, because I wouldn't put myself in this situation, but obviously you would), is to spin your anchored Catalina 40 around 180 degrees through a 5 knot current and back the boat through the current

Yes, I say so, I have never experienced this scenario.

By the way, if my anchor is dragging with the boat, along the bottom at 5 knots, then as soon as I bring the boat up to 5 knots through the water (0 over water)
Clearly if you power up your boat to hold zero speed over ground, your anchor is definitely forced under your boat by the 5 mph current. So yes, you are correct, you have no experience.

This 5 mph current I am experiencing every day. The current in the Mississippi averages about 5 mph. Sometimes more, sometimes less. During anchoring, my goal is always to anchor in much less current. Typically, I anchor in 0.5 to about 2 mph. At this moment I am anchored in 1.7 mph current. Even in 2 mph current, the anchor and chain get dragged under the boat as I pull it up. You NEVER put in forward once the anchor leaves its set in these conditions. Particularly critical with all line.

If my boat cannot power up in reverse or forward against a 5 mph current, it needs repair. And yes, I have had to reverse against a 5 mph current. I guess you have not..

If you want to gain this experience, drop your anchor with about 30 feet out but does not touch the bottom as you are cruising along at 5 mph. Ideally, use all line Come back to this forum and tell us all what the anchor did.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 10-18-2017 at 09:45 PM.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

Sure glad I like the taste of Jim Beam Honey Bourbon!

Gary
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
An anchor, as with many other items on a sailboat including the mast, standing rigging, the running rigging and the sails must be a complete system, matched to give maximum performance versus weight and ease of handling. A 150# Rocna would require 3/4" or larger chain and a suitable windlass. My #1 anchoring system, is a complete unit with all parts of relatively equal breaking strength and holding power.
As for "that extra hole on the end of your Rocna", I'm afraid you've got that all wrong Bryce old buddy, way, way wrong. That extra hole on the end of my Rocna" is for a line to extricate the Rocna should it get stuck under a rock or ledge. Since I rarely anchor in that sort of bottom, I do not often secure the release line, but we do have one onboard should we wish to use it. If you look closely at your Danforth, if it is a genuine Danforth it should have a similar hole or fixture point.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that your way is better and that all the weight I carry is pointless, but I challenge you to anchor for some 1000 days consecutively all over the eastern Caribbean with your system and then get back to me about how successful it is.
No, you are incorrect. Most all anchors Bruce, Delta and of course Rocna have a large hole to double end. Some have two holes at different height one for a trip line that you refer and another lower hole to double end.

And again, you are wrong True Danforths have no hole!

Ah.. so only in the Caribbean.. The fact that you never dragged a Rocna means your experience in the Carib is far from all encompassing.

All Rocnas will drag in hard clay bottoms. I would like to introduce you to the Chesepeke. Your opinion will change about your ground tackle.

And no I am not arguing my way is better, I am arguing my way is just as good.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 10-18-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Paul_L View Post
47ft of water with 150ft out, 25kt wind, and unable to let anymore out because the harbour patrol will not let you go any further back into the ship channel. Again, there's no alternative here right now.
3 feet line for every 1 foot of depth scope is not particularly difficult for either of my anchors. Aft anchor all line. Bow anchor chain and line. I don't see this scope as difficult for any good anchor after it sets.
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 10-18-2017 at 09:43 PM.
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