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post #281 of 535 Old 10-25-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Yes it does - they are all on Blue Water Boats...

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Exactly, Mate! Why is that hard for some to comprehend?


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post #282 of 535 Old 10-25-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
Still waiting for that empirical data to support your claims.
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Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
THere is no doubt that there are more boats anchored with only line and a Danforth than any thing else in the US. Millions of little power boats have been using this solution for decades. And still do to this day. These boats do not run amuck in the anchorages just because a breeze comes up.

And no doubt, Chesepeake with some of its clay bottom anchorages will cause your Rocna to drag. Other areas in the Chesepeake hold fine.

On the flip side, I agree softer clay makes an ideal bottom.
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I think there is little doubt that Bryce is correct.

(a) He is not talking about sailing marinas. I stay in a power boat marina (cat has wide beam and shallow is OK), and ALL of the powerboats have pivoting fluke anchors. Not sure they they use them much. About half have chain. If we add trailer boats he is clearly correct. That is not to say many do not have other anchors types, but "most" is a safe bet if you count all powerboats.

(b) There was a large test in the Chesapeake Bay, Solomons Island 2-3 years ago that showed that no new gen or conventionally sized anchor OTHER than a pivoting fluke anchor could hold in severe conditions in the local soft mud. Over many, many trials, holding of 45-pound anchors was 500-700 pounds, which is not enough for a boat that carries a 45-pound hook. Only pivoting fluke anchors held over 1000 pounds, and they held much more.

So yes, there is empirical evidence. You need to look for it. I don't feel that this makes the Fortress the best anchor for all purposes, but the "empirical evidence" in this specific case is irrefutable. I have also tested anchors for magazine articles in various Chesapeake locations, and the trends shown in this study for soft mud are correct. Period. Hard bottoms, rocks and weeds are a separate subject. In most places a NG anchor is excellent in the Bay, and that is what I use 95% of the time.

The Fine Art Of Anchoring - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

https://www.allatsea.net/best-anchor-for-mud/

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post #283 of 535 Old 10-25-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
I think there is little doubt that Bryce is correct.

(a) He is not talking about sailing marinas. I stay in a power boat marina (cat has wide beam and shallow is OK), and ALL of the powerboats have pivoting fluke anchors. Not sure they they use them much. About half have chain. If we add trailer boats he is clearly correct. That is not to say many do not have other anchors types, but "most" is a safe bet if you count all powerboats.

(b) There was a large test in the Chesapeake Bay, Solomons Island 2-3 years ago that showed that no new gen or conventionally sized anchor OTHER than a pivoting fluke anchor could hold in severe conditions in the local soft mud. Over many, many trials, holding of 45-pound anchors was 500-700 pounds, which is not enough for a boat that carries a 45-pound hook. Only pivoting fluke anchors held over 1000 pounds, and they held much more.

So yes, there is empirical evidence. You need to look for it. I don't feel that this makes the Fortress the best anchor for all purposes, but the "empirical evidence" in this specific case is irrefutable. I have also tested anchors for magazine articles in various Chesapeake locations, and the trends shown in this study for soft mud are correct. Period. Hard bottoms, rocks and weeds are a separate subject. In most places a NG anchor is excellent in the Bay, and that is what I use 95% of the time.

The Fine Art Of Anchoring - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

https://www.allatsea.net/best-anchor-for-mud/
Aw...no. Both of your citations appear to use chain and that was not the parameter as quoted below. The "evidence" presented is anecdotal and, at least for me, would not qualify as empirical.

"THere is no doubt that there are more boats anchored with only line and a Danforth than any thing else in the US. Millions of little power boats have been using this solution for decades. And still do to this day. These boats do not run amuck in the anchorages just because a breeze comes up.

And no doubt, Chesepeake with some of its clay bottom anchorages will cause your Rocna to drag. Other areas in the Chesepeake hold fine."

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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
Aw...no. Both of your citations appear to use chain and that was not the parameter as quoted below. The "evidence" presented is anecdotal and, at least for me, would not qualify as empirical.

"THere is no doubt that there are more boats anchored with only line and a Danforth than any thing else in the US. Millions of little power boats have been using this solution for decades. And still do to this day. These boats do not run amuck in the anchorages just because a breeze comes up.

And no doubt, Chesepeake with some of its clay bottom anchorages will cause your Rocna to drag. Other areas in the Chesepeake hold fine."
What? It was a large test witnessed by numerous independent experts. I repeated many of the test. This is empirical evidence for the type of mud Bryce referred to. No one has refuted the accuracy in that mud. You are simply refusing ignoring hard data you don't like. And no one said that NG anchors are not very good, just that they are not all things. There is also no reason that a NG maker could not sponsor a test in weeds and over hardpan. Yes, Fortress sponsored a test in A Chesapeake river where they knew they could excel. Isn't it smart to show your strength?

Part (b) did not refer to chain one way or the other. At the high load and long scope of these tests the effect is probably neutral or minor; chain lowers the lead angle just a little, though at over 1000 pounds it is clearly off the bottom, but chain also reduces the ability of an anchor to bury deeply (this has been proven empirically by many sources), which soft bottoms require. So the issue is really off the point.

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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
You are simply refusing ignoring hard data you don't like.
You are using narrow parameters unlike the poster you have quoted. I do not like or dislike hard data. I am judging the data on the merits as it applies to the example it is compared. I find the comparison dubious to what was originally presented. The links you supplied were informative but still are anecdotal and could not, in my opinion, be called definitive.

The phrase "no doubt", which I did not introduce, is a high standard and would not applicable here.

It would seem from your last post we are in agreement about NG anchors, however it would appear the poster whose position you have been defending is of a differing opinion.
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post #286 of 535 Old 10-25-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

A lot of people who have seen only one side of the elephant. In their experience, their particular anchor held. I'm not going to say that they are wrong, I'm just going to say that real cruisers don't always to get to pick their anchoring conditions. Here's my experience.

I started my first long (13,000 miles, 12 months) cruise on a 10000 pound boat with no windlass. We decided on a mixed rode with 40 ft of5/16 HT chain, with Fortress FX23 as the bower anchor.

That choice proved wrong the second time we tried to anchor in firm sand on the West Coast of Mexico. The Fortress would not set after repeated attempts. We went with the backup Danforth, which set immediately and held well.

The next notable anchoring failure was two nights off the west side of Pitcairn in 35 ft of water, variable winds in the lee of the small island. We set in a sandy patch, but could see rocks on the bottom. On departure we pulled the Danforth to find that two of the three strands of rode had chafed through. Thanking our lucky stars that we had not had to spend a few months on Pitcairn waiting for the next supply ship, we shackled another 40 ft of chain onto the original and respliced the remains of the nylon to it.

That got us to an anchorage in the Marquesas, where we anchored in 20 ft and backed down with a good set. The wind died in the night and the boat wandered. The next morning we were having coffee in the cockpit when we noticed were were dragging past the other boats in the gentle morning breeze. We brought up the Danforth to find that the chain had wrapped around the bar.

For the rest of the trip to NZ, we had to be extremely careful anchoring around bommies, trying to keep the rope off the rocks. One night I had to anchor in 90 ft in Raitea, and spent the night on anchor watch.

After that cruise, we decided that our next boat would have a windlass and an all chain rode, and something besides a Danforth as a bower anchor. The new boat was 30,000 pounds loaded and came with a 20kg genuine Bruce. Chafe was not a problem, but the Bruce proved undersized and too many times we had to set a Danforth Hi Tensile as a second anchor in softer ground or high winds or reversing current. We carried a Fortress FX 37 as a storm anchor, but never assembled it in 15 years and 100,000 miles. In Turkey we upgraded the Bower to a 60 lb Buegel, which was much better setting in weed, but still occasionally dragged. Given my more recent experience with a Manson 60 and a large Spade, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to a Rocna, Spade or Manson, which not only have high holding power, but reset quickly and reliably on current or wind shifts.

One last data point was last month, where I had to park a 70 ft raceboat for a couple of days in 20 ft in a narrow channel with reversing current and wind against tide. Being a raceboat, all it had was a Fortress FX 85, so I borrowed a 40 lb Danforth. I set the Danforth off the bow and the Fortress of the stern. It took 3 tries to get the Fortress to set, which biases me a bit more against it as an all round anchor.

Almost any anchor and rode will work in good holding without sharp rocks, and the pull in one direction If that's all you have to anchor in, most times you will be fine (although one time in Cabo I set an anchor to keep off the fuel pier, and dragged into it because I had hooked a short piece of drainpipe). Its when you have soupy mud (of the Naval Academy), heavy weeds (in a lot of the Med), coral rubble (the Saints), or a strong reversing current (the Hudson river off the 79th st boat basin), and wind against tide that you will challenge your anchoring system.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
.....two nights off the west side of Pitcairn in 35 ft.....One night I had to anchor in 90 ft in Raitea.....
Good post.
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post #288 of 535 Old 10-25-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
A lot of people who have seen only one side of the elephant. In their experience, their particular anchor held. I'm not going to say that they are wrong, I'm just going to say that real cruisers don't always to get to pick their anchoring conditions. Here's my experience….
donradclife, excellent post. Parallels my more limited experience as well.

For those who actually cruise to their great beyond, NG anchors and lots of chain, is the best combo. Daforth’s are great anchors for the right conditions. But they are not the best bower for the range of possible anchoring challenges cruisers face.
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post #289 of 535 Old 10-26-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

The holding power of new generation anchors and the chafe resistance of chain are both very significant to the original post, but it seems to me this thread has covered a bit more than the scope of the original post.

One thing we have going on is this concept of a real cruiser. It's not something that has just popped up, it's been present throughout most of the thread in some form.

In my opinion, many (possibly most?) of us are not this idealised version of a real cruiser. We're day sailors, week enders, racers, voyagers and fake cruisers. If I was a new sailor and read and believed much of the content of this thread, I might be led to believe that holding power and chafe resistance are the only considerations in anchor selection, because that's what real cruisers are most concerned with.

But for practical day to day anchoring for an average sailor (like me), ease of handling, ease of stowage, weight, complexity of systems and cost are all going to be significant and competing concerns, which is likely why so many power boaters are using Danforth and fibre rode. They're not wrong, they just aren't anchored in a hurricane in a 5 knot current with an obstacle course down stream of them.

I anchor quite a bit, but not generally in the scenarios presented. I generally remove my engine and stow it when I'm sailing because it causes drag in a place where I don't want drag, I generally sail single handed, I don't have an autopilot, and I sail in confined waters, so my anchor comes out a lot.

I'll chuck an anchor over the side to shorten sail, place or remove my outboard, make tea, eat lunch or see if the fish are biting. A lot of the time I use my anchor, I don't even really care that much if it holds, as long as it slows me down and swings my bow into the wind. What I'm most concerned with, is ease of use. I don't want a process that is going to take more than 5 minutes, need electricity or an engine, takes up tons of space or is so heavy it weighs me down or messes up my trim.

My point here is that, while all chain and new generation anchors might be best in some situations, such as maximum holding power for real cruising, there are many situations where it might not necessarily be the most practical solution. If it was, you would see a lot more bass boats trimmed down by the head with giant windlasses, hundreds of feet of chain and Rocna anchors.

Some power boaters, especially the fishing crowd have possibly done as much anchoring as real cruisers and I doubt they are all wrong about their chosen anchoring set ups.
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post #290 of 535 Old 10-26-2017
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

I don’t know what a “real cruiser” is Arcb. And there is definitely a wide range of boats, uses, areas and conditions that we could include here. Perhaps it would be more useful to have separate threads for them all.

I do know that when I anchor I want to stay put, whether it be for lunch, or for weeks at a time, or through a gale. To me, a good anchoring system is one that is matched to the boat and crew’s capabilities, and to the expect anchoring conditions. Ease of use is essential, otherwise it won’t be used properly. Storage of anchor/rode is part of that, as is cost. I don’t see any of these factors in conflict with much of the discussion here.

To me, a good bower (as opposed to a storm anchor system, which is a different beast) is one that can be easily deployed and retrieved. It is of sufficient size and design for the range of conditions that one can reasonably expect to encounter while “out there.”

If “out there” is around the bay in known waters and bottoms, then it’s pretty easy to pick the perfect anchor/rode for the occasion. You can know how much rode (rope, chain or any combo) you need, and you can know what is the best anchor for the bottom.

If “out there” takes you beyond the edges of your explored map, then you need to cover a much wider range of anchoring conditions. That still includes balancing all the factors you mentioned such as storage, complexity, and yes, cost. Same calculus, but with greater range or uncertainty.

There’s no such thing as the perfect solution — for anything in life. But there are better and worse choices depending on the circumstances. Matching your anchoring system to your boat and crew is no different than carrying the right sail or engine for your boat. Carrying a 2-pound anchor on a 4000-pound boat is as foolish as using a handkerchief on a 25-foot mast as a sail. It’s simply a poor choice — unless you have no other option, or really don’t need to move the boat with the sail.

To be clear, I’ve repeatedly said a Danforth-style anchor is a great anchor for the right conditions. It’s why I carry two (a Danforth and a Fortress). And rope/chain rodes are also just fine when used correctly. My second and third rodes are rope/chain. To me, this discussion is not about finding some sort of universal BEST ANCHOR SYSTEM for everyone. It’s about understanding your needs based on the boat, the crew and the expected anchoring conditions.
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