Not Getting the All-Chain Thing - Page 48 - SailNet Community
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post #471 of 535 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Yes on the physics. I just donít think one should make assumptions about cleats without checking. A dock cleat may, or may not, deal with greater forces. Itís all circumstantial. But one thing is certain, the design force vectors are very likely different.

This is why I donít think it wise to simply assume your stout looking stern cleats are up to the task. Itís specifically why, when rigging a drogue, that the stern cleats on most boats need to be enhanced so as to withstand this new load. Anchoring could produce similar forces.

I really donít mean to belabour this discussion. I do think the stern anchor idea is a useful one for certain boats in certain situations. If your boat wonders and yaws significantly at (bow) anchor, and other solutions havenít helped, then it might be worth giving it a try. But itís not a general purpose approach, and it comes with significant challenges.
I wouldn't suggest that anyone assume their bow or stern cleats and attachments are up to the task of holding in extreme conditions. A lot probably wouldn't and most weren't designed to. That's not to say they can't be used for the purpose of anchoring in anything but extreme conditions. You just don't want the cleats to be the "weakest link".

The rigging of a drogue is a completely different than rigging for anchoring. The drogue will experience MUCH greater loads that an anchor rode would. A drogue has to deal with the boat surfing down large waves where the anchor attachment point deals mainly with wind induced forces.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald5 View Post

You are a good candidate for dyneema then.
I would be curious to try dyneema anchor line. There don't seem to be many online resources for anchoring with it, but I have been using it for more and more stuff lately. Its really hard to cut, so I am guessing that its way better than nylon for chaffe resistance. It weighs next to nothing it's strong.

It floats though, so I guess you would need a length of chain attached to the anchor shaft and a kellet to keep it from floating up. I am okay with kellets though. I can see them being a pain with a windlass, but when hand bombing the line they really don't seem to be a problem. I just use a 5lb mushroom anchor. Works great.

If I ever get around to buying a new gen anchor I might try it with dyneema.
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post #473 of 535 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
.... Its really hard to cut, so I am guessing that its way better than nylon for chaffe resistance......
Doesn't dyneema usually have a cover for chafe resistance, because the product itself is not all that resistant? I made my own davit bridle with dyneema and didn't find it difficult to cut at all.


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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

I think every post on anchoring technique should be preceded by a brief description of what youíre anchoring, and where. Otherwise the information isnít terribly useful.

So I have a Catalina 22, a 2,300 lb boat that I mostly anchor in protected lakes. Sometimes high winds, but never big waves. I use a 13 lb faux-danforth (oversized for this boat) with 20í of chain and the rest 3-strand nylon.

1. My boat swings like a motherf***er. Itís pretty light weight and the stack pack acts like a small sail, so in any kind of wind I am all over the place. I should build a riding sail, but this idea of stern anchoring is also appealing.

2. I have wrapped my rode around the keel a few times. Again, a small light boat that spins easily. However I donít see how stern anchoring would prevent that.

3. Iíve never had my fake danforth drag. But I have pulled it up completely jammed with mud and weeds, such that there is no way it could have reset had it needed to.

4. Even though Iím in lakes with only small waves, theyíre still annoying when they start slapping. That could be a real downside to stern anchoring. I could see that if it was really hot and I was trying to sleep having the companionway open straight to the wind would be nice, and since the slap would be at the back and Iíd be sleeping up front maybe it wouldnít be too bad? But mostly, if the wind is strong enough that Iím worried about swinging, then itís also strong enough that itíd be uncomfortable to have it blowing straight into the cockpit.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Doesn't dyneema usually have a cover for chafe resistance, because the product itself is not all that resistant? I made my own davit bridle with dyneema and didn't find it difficult to cut at all.
I made my lifelines out of dyneema (no covering) and I found it quite challenging to cut. Certainly easier than wire or chain, but definitely harder than nylon.

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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

If you use dyneema for anchor rode will you need a nylon snubber?
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Actually, the biggest upsides is less chafe and way less holding power needed. A violently yawing boat will quickly chafe thru the anchor rode. The wind load on the beam is much greater than from the bow or stern. Point being, if you want to survive a violent storm at anchor, anchor from the stern.
I can't imagine anchoring from the stern in a violent storm. First, since there isn't a chock in the middle of my boats stern, I'd have to use one of the cleats/chocks that are located along the side which would result in being cocked off to one side, or I'd have to fabricate quite a big harness, similar to what multihulls use, Also, since I have no windlass on my stern, if I wanted to shorten the rode during this violent storm I'd have to do it by hand while backing towards it. Since my boat is not a double ender, the waves generated by this violent storm would be smashing into my transom, and since it's a sugarscoop type quite a lot of force would be exerted as each wave broke against my transom and then was blown up onto the deck. My dodger would act as a big wind scoop and the whole cockpit would be exposed to rain and windblown seawater and as soon as I cracked open the companionway, that water would immediately find its way below. If the waves are big and the boat is pitching, my rudder would be exposed to the force of the waves breaking against it so I would worry about it being damaged.

My boat doesn't yaw violently at anchor anyway, especially with my snubber lead over the bow roller but I have chafe gear permanently on my snubber and once the anchor is set I secure it in position so that any chafe would occur to the chafe gear rather than to the snubber itself. If chafe somehow does occur, it's not difficult to fasten a new snubber to the chain and then let out another 30' or so of chain until the new snubber takes the load. I can't say that I've ridden out what I'd call any violent storms at anchor because I always seek a sheltered anchorage in bad weather, but with the precautions I've mentioned, routing the snubber over rollers on centerline of boat and that snubber having chafe gear located at point where it contacts the roller, I've never had any chafe issues at all. Stern anchoring might work in some situations but I think it's a very bad idea for most boats during a violent storm, or even in 2'-3' whitecaps if your boat has a sugarscoop or wide, flat transom. There are lots of very good reasons why the anchors on most boats all around the world are located on or near the bow.
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Last edited by jtsailjt; 05-15-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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Re: Not Getting the All-Chain Thing

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
I think every post on anchoring technique should be preceded by a brief description of what youíre anchoring, and where. Otherwise the information isnít terribly useful.



1. My boat swings like a motherf***er. Itís pretty light weight and the stack pack acts like a small sail, so in any kind of wind I am all over the place. I should build a riding sail, but this idea of stern anchoring is also appealing.

2. I have wrapped my rode around the keel a few times. Again, a small light boat that spins easily. However I donít see how stern anchoring would prevent that.

.
If you think wrapping your rode around your keel wasn't fun, just imagine what excitement you'd have had if it had been wrapped around your rudder or propeller instead.

I agree wholeheartedly that all our boats have different characteristics so it would be helpful to understand different techniques and opinions if we are told on what boat the incident occurred and under what conditions.
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
.... Its really hard to cut, so I am guessing that its way better than nylon for chaffe resistance......
Doesn't dyneema usually have a cover for chafe resistance, because the product itself is not all that resistant? I made my own davit bridle with dyneema and didn't find it difficult to cut at all.
dyneema is very chafe and uv resistant. Much more so than nylon.
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Great stuff...but doesnt stretch
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