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post #31 of 47 Old 11-07-2017
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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
...The mud does not come out of the links fast enough even with my high pressure wash down...
Absolutely, that is my experience that I was mentioning. It's especially tough when every other link is facing the wrong way. When anchored in mud, I'd have to pull about 4' at a time (freeboard) and stop to wash down. Doing 200' this way took a LONG time (50 cycles of 4' each).

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Re: What if No-Chain?

^start a bit earlier with a bigger pot O coffee..haul up the chain that was sitting in the mud to the surface..let the current/tide do most of the cleaning..have another cuppa or two, pull in a bit more chain, rinse, repeat..sometimes with a lot of chain out I'll start the night before..I was a bit lazy this last time, the 25 feet or so that was in the water was covered in barnacles...I'll usually let some scope out so the portion in the water gets back in the mud/sand whatever and gets a good clean.

Curious on those all line rodes..how are you cleaning all the damn barnacles off after extended times in high fouling areas? Or is the master line anchoring guy a fresh water dude?


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post #33 of 47 Old 11-07-2017
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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
If there is, please guide me to it. I would b very interested. I have read other abrasion methods, but nothing that applies here.

I serve on a number of ASTM committees, and generally there are NOT standards for things that are not considered normal use. End-to-end over a guide is normal. Fiber-to-fiber wear is normal. Side-to-side over a rock is not. And sometimes things are simply difficult to standardize; how rough should the rock be? Unless a great majority of the members want the standard, and someone is willing to take on the research budget, it does not happen.
Actually (by a quick google search) there is apparently quite a bit of abrasion testing by the manufacturers of rope, etc. used by the suppliers to the marine trade / towing industries ***. All these methods seemingly are based and 'derived' on the core abrasion tests as developed by ASTM, yet modified per the supplier. As specifically for braided ropes, where the fiber lay is at a significant angle from 'straight' across; but, at typically ~45 to the travel direction one 'could' make the assumption of at least a partial 'side to side' lay abrasion (~Sin 45). AS a quick cursory look, thats seemingly what the high tech marine rope folks seem to be be doing to validate their 'abrasion advantages' over their competitors. Yes indeed, a very small niche market.

I live near Conshohocken Pa the headquarters of ASTM and was briefly involved with various such committees (as a temp. employee during my summer breaks as a budding college student and for a brief period while looking for my first 'real' job. I was quite involved in such devices of ASTM standard testing methods and testing equipment (Tinius Olsen Testing Machines, Horsham Pa.)

The following evaluations by 'rope' manufacturers are probably performing derivations of ASTM ASTM D4157 - 13 and adjacent Standard Test Method for Abrasion ...
https://www.astm.org/Standards/D4157.htm
D4157 - 13(2017) Standard Test Method for Abrasion Resistance of Textile Fabrics (Oscillatory Cylinder Method) , abrasion, woven fabric,,
ASTM D4966 - 12(2016) Standard Test Method for Abrasion ...
https://www.astm.org/Standards/D4966.htm
D4966 - 12(2016) Standard Test Method for Abrasion Resistance of Textile Fabrics (Martindale Abrasion Tester Method) , abrasion, knit fabric, woven fabric,,

*** https://towmasters.files.wordpress.c...st_effects.pdf

*** ATS | Abrasion Testing
etc. etc. etc.

Obviously rocks and other sharp bottom artifacts don't have the typical ~200 micro-inch surface roughness as would be similar to the standard testing machine roughness ... but, can still be a means of in-service life predictions ... as a correlation.
I'd be quite surprised that the kernmantle (climbing rope) producers aren't doing something similar, especially for transverse abrasion.

regards

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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Absolutely, that is my experience that I was mentioning. It's especially tough when every other link is facing the wrong way. When anchored in mud, I'd have to pull about 4' at a time (freeboard) and stop to wash down. Doing 200' this way took a LONG time (50 cycles of 4' each).
If your chain roller has a 'chain groove', and the angle of the water blast is at ~45 to that groove you'll probably find that those links will clean out a lot faster.
There was a post about `6 months ago wherein the originating poster advised quick raising and lowering of a partly 'tight' chain rode from the bottom by the windlass to help shock-shake off the excess adhering mud ... following that recommendation, Ive found it does 'help'.

Where on the Chesapeake or Delaware Bays, for normal anchoring, does one need to have 200 ft. of chain out? My long term experience there is 50-75'.
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post #35 of 47 Old 11-07-2017
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Re: What if No-Chain?

Before I weigh anchor, I put the engine in reverse for two reasons. First, it straightens out the chain rode, so I'm not hunting all around to retrieve the rode that never pulled straight. Yes, for those that are concerned about all chan, this is most common. 95+% of the time, it never even straightens out on the seabed, let alone pulls bar straight at anchor. Second, pulling it up off the bottom begins the cleaning process and makes the wash down pretty easy.
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post #36 of 47 Old 11-07-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
^start a bit earlier with a bigger pot O coffee..haul up the chain that was sitting in the mud to the surface..let the current/tide do most of the cleaning..have another cuppa or two, pull in a bit more chain, rinse, repeat..sometimes with a lot of chain out I'll start the night before..I was a bit lazy this last time, the 25 feet or so that was in the water was covered in barnacles...I'll usually let some scope out so the portion in the water gets back in the mud/sand whatever and gets a good clean.

Curious on those all line rodes..how are you cleaning all the damn barnacles off after extended times in high fouling areas? Or is the master line anchoring guy a fresh water dude?
I'm guessing that very, very few boats in the target group for little or no chain (smaller performance boats?) will ever anchor long enough to get hard growth. A few, but probably not relevant to a single follower of this thread. Certainly not me. On my last (cruising) boat, perhaps, but not actually. And doesn't he zinc repel most hard growth, until it gets rusty?

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post #37 of 47 Old 11-07-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by BryceGTX View Post
Boy it seems very apparent that no one on this thread has any significant experience with line only.

First consider this issue of setting a Danforth with no chain. A typical 6:1 scope creates an angle of less than 9 degrees which easily sets a True Danforth. A Danforth even sets in mud or sand with a 3:1 scope. And the same goes for a reversing current such as a tide changes.

Second, consider if the case of stuff on the bottom cutting the line. If there is any wind or current, the line will never touch the bottom. Quite unlike chain that sits on the bottom in light wind. In the case that the line sits on the bottom, by definition, there is no load on it to cut it.

Third, consider the case that the line has wrapped something on the bottom. I guarantee, you have more to worry about than the line being cut by what it is wrapped around, you invariably will loose your anchor and rode if you cannot somehow unwrap it.

Fourth, consider the wash down issue. There will be no mud on the line if it is not on the bottom! Which will be the case if you have any wind. Even if it does hit the muddy bottom, mud does not embed itself on the line like it gets embedded in chain links. No way can I wash down my chain with one hand while drinking a coffee. The mud does not come out of the links fast enough even with my high pressure wash down.

Fifth, consider the issue of hauling in the line. If you have a drum on your windlass, it is no different than winching a sheet. Wrap it three times around the drum and it comes in easily. It never needs to be washed down, so don't waste your time. If you have chain/line, as it comes to the interface, the boat is moving forward you have slack in the rode that allows you to move to the chain reel of the windlass.

Sixth, if you do not have a proper anchor hatch to simply dropping your rode in, I feel very sorry for you. I would be cutting a hole in my deck to make one.

You guys are way over analyzing a none issue and coming up with excuses as to why plain nylon cannot be used.
Bryce
Uh... me, the guy who started the thread. I cruised many thousands of miles with only a trace of chain. There are certainly negatives, but they do not apply to all boats, do they? As for cutting, I've been working on chafe leader testing, the stuff of an up-coming article.

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post #38 of 47 Old 11-07-2017
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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
If your chain roller has a 'chain groove', and the angle of the water blast is at ~45 to that groove you'll probably find that those links will clean out a lot faster.
There was a post about `6 months ago wherein the originating poster advised quick raising and lowering of a partly 'tight' chain rode from the bottom by the windlass to help shock-shake off the excess adhering mud ... following that recommendation, Ive found it does 'help'.

Where on the Chesapeake or Delaware Bays, for normal anchoring, does one need to have 200 ft. of chain out? My long term experience there is 50-75'.
First, it was not my boat. I was the caretaker of a friend's Mason 44 during summer 2015, which meant I was being extra careful with both scope and cleanliness of the chain. It was only my second time anchoring with that boat. Just a couple hours earlier I had raised anchor in St. Michaels, and the chain came up completely clean from the mud+sand bottom. While heading west southwest through Eastern Bay, a storm was coming across fast from the west, and a dozen or so boats headed toward Cox's Creek. I could not get back there because of so many other boats, and I was drawing 6.5'. I had to anchor off or Romancoke, where there is a sharp drop-off from 2' to 25'. The storm looked like it was strong, so I put out 7:1 with 5' freeboard, or 7*(25+5)=210'. The storm broke up with nary a puff, so all that chain was sitting on the bottom. And unlike St. Mikes, it was pure mud and heavily caked. The 45 angle trick wouldn't work because it was so heavily caked that I had to spray each section from both sides. And with more storms forecast later in the day I didn't want to wait for a few pots of coffee.

On my new boat I have a little chain and a lot of rope, and it works fine for the conditions that we anchor in. My windlass works nicely on the rope, though if it failed I could easily pull it in manually. I wrap the windlass with duct tape so I could pull the chain without taking off chunks or chrome plating, but I haven't had to do that, since I have no problems pulling up my small amount of chain by hand.

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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
...Obviously rocks and other sharp bottom artifacts don't have the typical ~200 micro-inch surface roughness as would be similar to the standard testing machine roughness ... but, can still be a means of in-service life predictions ... as a correlation....
Actually, that is just the sort of false correlation ASTM works hard to protect against. Based on my testing, I do not think this is a valid extension. That was my point.

The test I suggested was simple (pendulum). Try it.

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Re: What if No-Chain?

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
Consider that 'snubbers' only briefly extend the impact time (total force imparted by) of an all chain rode. In moderate conditions its the catenary that dampens the total time of impact - reasonable. In the quite rare extreme conditions and when there is essentially no catenary, a few feet of comparatively low elastic 'snubber line' isn't going to make any effective difference in the amount of impact - one of PDQ's rationale basis for this thread. During those times Ill probably be at 10:1 of greater scope (on rope or chain) ... there probably will be catenary, at least between the gusts. ;-)

The only rational way to do this is to perform repeatable experimentation in various bottoms, use various scopes and fluke angles, apply sufficient 'break out' force on the anchor --- pretty much all anchor manufacturers and USCG, etc. have published such data. And then, use such info and your personal experience as your guide.

Also know that double braid and three strand nylon continually hydrolyzes (weakens) when in constant contact with water .... a consideration for those who sit on their anchor a lot while doing 'extended' cruising. Certainly galvanized steel doesn't continually 'break-down' & weaken to the same rate as water-wetted nylon.
As one who uses both all chain and a mix rode .... after a few seasons anchored in 'de islands' and mud holes to and from these places, and well knowing the hydrolysis - material strength problem with wetted nylon, I will tell you that I certainly replace more nylon rodes than I replace all chain rodes. In industry etc., nylon(N6 & N66) begins to hydrolyze 'severely' and begin to significantly 'particulate' after about ~6 months of contact with water. Have you priced 'quality' nylon anchor line lately? ;-)

As regards the comparative weights of chain vs. nylon .... does it really matter to add an extra 1-200 lbs. to a cruising boat thats probably already 2 or more inches deeper in the water because of the typical stores aboard when long term cruising? I haven't cut the handle off my toothbrushes, etc. to save weight since I was actively backpacking; nor do I cruise with empty fuel (100 gallons) and water (100 gallon) tanks, only have 3 days of lightweight snack food, nor do I inspect and weigh everyone's 'permitted gym bag' for clothing .... all to save weight.
When Im PHRF racing my crab-crusher ... I might leave the all chain rode at the dock and have mostly empty tanks, etc.

For me, I prefer all chain so that when I inadvertently wrap the chain around a coral head or cochina rock (fossilized shells) during a real blow, I don't give a damn. ;-)

regards
There are a number of false comparisons here, all of which will lead back to the all-chain practice. As I said, for my last boat I used all chain and liked it for the traditional reasons. This was supposed to be a thought exercise, not an assault on traditional practices and reasoning.

a. A snubber can offer a LOT of shock absorption. I consider a snubber to be about 30-40 feet long and quite elastic. The typical 6' snubber is simple a fiber chain lock. This is obbvious to me, since multihulls always use bridles.

b. I have performed such scope/break-out testing and it has been published. For pure load testing, the rode is straight and the pull is slow, so the material is not very important (unless we consider diameter--thinner is better). As for chain vs. nylon in dynamic conditions, that is far to complex for simple analysis (I have published it). In general, chain will do well in deep water, and nylon will do much better in shallow water.

c. Weight. Yes, a few hundred pounds would matter in the bow of a Stiletto 27 or F-24. 50 pounds would be out of place and noticeable to the keen eye in terms of pitching. This thread was not targeted at the typical lead mine.

d. Hypothetical. The question was "what would you do if there was no chain." Well, what do you suggest?

On answer is a free floating chafe guard not totally dissimilar from that used on dock lines. I've been testing some webbing/Dyneema hybrids that wear 20x better than nylon and better than steel cable. I'm curious for fresh ideas. Old ideas work, but are , well... old. As I said, I've used all-chain for decades and you don't need to sell the merits to anyone.

So, what would you do if you couldn't use chain?

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