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-   -   What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat? (https://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/325872-what-take-into-account-when-considering-40-year-old-sailboat.html)

Minnewaska 09-22-2018 08:13 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal Paradise (Post 2051554390)
keel bolts can be checked by lifting inspection plates in the floor.....

Not really. You can only see the exposed part of the bolt. The bigger issue is what it looks like below the bilge and inside the keel. Iíve never known a survey to check this, which is why I would want to know if theyíre original.

In my case, we had a boat yard put rock salt in my bilge to try to melt ice that had formed. She went up on the hard, it poured rain and our keel stepped mast allows meaningful water in, especially when wind is toward the furling mast slot. The bilge drain (remove a through hull near the mast) hadnít been opened yet. Then, as luck would have it, the cold front that produced the rainstorm dropped temps way below freezing. It was a bad situation.

In any case, that dumbass rock salt move has caused severe corrosion on the nuts and threaded posts you can see. I have a strong suspicion, the threads below will be fine.

On the other hand, itís entirely possible that the nuts and threads in the bilge look fine, if theyíve been clean and dry for a lifetime. However, if the keel joint has leaked in the past 30 years, they could be corroded where you canít see. There may or may not be telltales of rust at this joint. It could have been cleaned up and sealed. Further itís possible the rust at the joint is just the iron keel, if it has one, and not the bolts. I know one of our members here has posted pics of his keel bolts, when he dropped his keel. They looked okay on top, but the parts below the bilge were half corroded away.

Iím not saying all boats need new keel boats in 14 years. Iím only saying itís a genuine wildcard on a 30+ year old boat, if theyíre original.

Goat_boy 09-22-2018 08:43 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
So I am looking at buying a San Juan 24 and it's my first sailboat. There is one for sale at a reasonable price but it has a few cabin leaks

"Cabin leaks are two,one at the back cabin wall gusset and one at a through bolt fitting on the cabin top.... I'm also willing to drop my asking price a little"

What should I look for.... are these serious or just part of owning a sail boat

Steve

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk

Dispatch 09-23-2018 02:49 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
I'm trying to cipher if buying one that old is cost-effective, (with the assumption of it being in equally good condition), does a sailboat that many decades old depreciate faster than one that is 10 years or so newer, and if so, how do you determine its reduction rate? http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/s...psleekdugz.gif

SV Siren 09-23-2018 07:47 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Goat_boy, leaks like those would generally fall under normal maintanence..things need to be re-bedded for water intrusion as part of owning a boat. Now if the water intrusion has done damage to the core around the leak, that is a whole other can of worms.


Dispatch, Once something gets to be 40+ years old it generally is not going to depreciate anymore, the caveat being that if it is actively maintained, and well kept. If it has been let go, and is a total wreck needing lots of work, the value can drop, even to the point of having a negative value as the cost to scrap it out is more than the value of the bits and pieces.


Just my .02

Jeff_H 09-23-2018 08:57 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
To a great extent. This is a 'how long is a piece of string' question. There are so many variables that there is no one size fits all answer. There are many basic truths within the discussion points above. The reality is that no matter how much stuff that you put aboard a boat, an older boat will always have it's upper value limited by being a somewhat obsolete design, and if poorly maintained and upgraded it can easily have a negative value.

The upper value of an older boat will barely increase no matter how much equipment and upgrades are added to the boat, since the fundamental fact that the design and basic equipment are out of date is not changed by adding a lot of expensive items to the boat. That is further compounded by the fact that items that are added are used at the time that the boat is being sold.

Additionally 30-40 years ago was not a great time in boat building, especially for companies like Pearson. It was a time when the better boat builder were investing in better quality control and engineering to produce lighter stronger boats. Companies like Morgan, Pearson, Cal, and O'Day were struggling financially and could not put out the capital to improve their build quality and engineering, so continued building comparatively crude designs that were also crudely built. Much of the corners which were cut impacts the long term strength of the hull and the ease of maintenance and updating these boats.

On used boats that are reasonably well maintained, equipped, and maintained they typically reach a floor after 25-30 years where their maximum value doesn't really depreciate any further and their sales price value is solely controlled by their condition.

The way that I have generally priced boats is that I will track a number of similar designs from a number of different manufacturers on Yachtworld and other online sites. I log every one that I find with the asking price when listed, equipment, and price drops, how long it was on the market, and the last price before it was sold. I produce a base price which is the average of the last listed prices, with 10% and 15% knocked off of that number. I typically add 20% of the new cost of each item of recently added gear that is not on all the other boats (i.e. one boat had a new $3500 radar installation, I added $700 to the value of the boat.)

There are owners who buy an older boat, dump a lot of money into the boat and insist that the sales price should reimburse them for most or all of their outlay. Those owners are being unrealistic and frankly usually are not worth negotiating with since they will be typically looking for 20-50% more than that boat would ever be worth and they rarely budge enough to get the price down to something realistic until something changes and they eventually need to sell at a lower more reasonable price. .

And while all of that might suggest that buying a newer design might make sense, I am not sure that it does. There have been several huge jumps in boat prices over the past 30 years. And with those jumps, newer boats tend to be much more expensive to buy, and also tend to have a lot more depreciation over time. After about 10 years of age the boat also moves into a more expensive maintenance cycle of any older boat as sails, standing and running rigging, engine, electronics and so on approach the end of their useful lifespan.

So the only accurate answer on this is 'it all depends'.

Jeff

MikeOReilly 09-23-2018 09:47 AM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispatch (Post 2051554538)
I'm trying to cipher if buying one that old is cost-effective, (with the assumption of it being in equally good condition), does a sailboat that many decades old depreciate faster than one that is 10 years or so newer, and if so, how do you determine its reduction rate? http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/s...psleekdugz.gif

What the others have saidÖ An old boat has probably reached its low price point. You canít really raise it much, but you can lower it through poor maintenance.

If youíre looking for a financial justification to buy a boat, youíre not going to find one. Unless the boat is going to be your primary home, itís almost always going to be a poor financial investment ó but an amazing investment in life!

SanderO 09-23-2018 08:13 PM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeOReilly (Post 2051554556)
What the others have saidÖ An old boat has probably reached its low price point. You canít really raise it much, but you can lower it through poor maintenance.

If youíre looking for a financial justification to buy a boat, youíre not going to find one. Unless the boat is going to be your primary home, itís almost always going to be a poor financial investment ó but an amazing investment in life!

I suppose one could do a really great restore and raise the value compared to similar hulls and vintage. But clearly you're not dealing with a antique or collectible... it's an old boat!

Tuna Driver 10-03-2018 01:49 PM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Does the boat "Speak" to you? We have a 52 year old boat that we love. We have spent far more than it's worth in improvements and maintenance over the ten years we have been the caretakers. It has given us countless hours of pleasure and delight. Oh, and a few not so delightful hours (We are really good with an angle grinder.) We also had a 40ish boat for a couple of years that was a learning experience. We sold it for a moderate loss. In both cases, we had surveys by an accredited surveyor. There were no surprises. If you find a boat that you like and it fits your needs, get a survey. Make an informed decision. A good old boat has been around long enough for all the quirks to be known. You shouldn't spend a fortune on it. And you can walk away without losing your shirt if it doesn't meet your needs. Buying a boat is, after all, not a rational decision.

Dispatch 06-09-2019 05:08 PM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Since my last post I've looked at so many... boats that weren't even worth going to see and were a total waste of my time, money and efforts in doing so.

With so many boats on the market not selling for years, it's confusing, what would you say is the max you should expect to spend on improving a sailboat of this type and age?

What I mean is, based on what you 'actually will' pay for the boat, is there a maximum percentage (or maximum amount), of that you should not go over for which is too much money to invest to bring it to excellent condition?

Before paying for a professional inspection, how do you determine if a boat is even worth the asking price due to the fact it needs too much to thoroughly fix than it is worth?

How much should you upgrade a sailboat or should you just use it 'as is' if its in usable, bare bones running condition? https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds

boatpoker 06-09-2019 06:32 PM

Re: What To Take Into Account When Considering A 40+ Year Old Sailboat?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispatch (Post 2051607608)
Since my last post I've looked at so many... boats that weren't even worth going to see and were a total waste of my time, money and efforts in doing so.

With so many boats on the market not selling for years, it's confusing, what would you say is the max you should expect to spend on improving a sailboat of this type and age?

What I mean is, based on what you 'actually will' pay for the boat, is there a maximum percentage (or maximum amount), of that you should not go over for which is too much money to invest to bring it to excellent condition?

Before paying for a professional inspection, how do you determine if a boat is even worth the asking price due to the fact it needs too much to thoroughly fix than it is worth?

How much should you upgrade a sailboat or should you just use it 'as is' if its in usable, bare bones running condition? https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds

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