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capta 03-11-2019 10:17 PM

Propane line
 
We just picked up a new 4 burner propane countertop stove and the instructions state it may not have a hose longer than 1.5 meters!
I've used and even installed plenty of propane stoves and every one had a hose longer than that, some longer than twenty feet.
Our propane tank locker is aft and the stove is about 16 feet away and we'll probably need around 20 feet for the install.
Can this be some sort of Chinese directions misprint (15 meters instead of 1.5) or could there be a valid reason for this?

Bleemus 03-12-2019 12:28 AM

Re: Propane line
 
I can't think of any reason why it matters. Pressure is pressure. I wouldn't hesitate if installed correctly.

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PhilCarlson 03-12-2019 07:56 AM

Re: Propane line
 
I agree, doesn't matter. Pressure is unaffected by the length of the line, and as long as the diameter is the same or larger, volume delivered to the appliance won't be an issue.

SanderO 03-12-2019 08:15 AM

Re: Propane line
 
My boat came with hose. I would think the issue may be related to leaks and perhaps cracks or poor clamping... and vibration. Rubber does degrade and tubing is believed to maintain its integrity.

It's a good practice to replace hoses... engine hoses and I suppose the propane hose after some number of years... but how many years?

RegisteredUser 03-12-2019 10:54 AM

Could be referr8ng to solenoid control valve...but i dont know why...:)

MarkSF 03-12-2019 11:37 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051588476)
We just picked up a new 4 burner propane countertop stove and the instructions state it may not have a hose longer than 1.5 meters!
I've used and even installed plenty of propane stoves and every one had a hose longer than that, some longer than twenty feet.
Our propane tank locker is aft and the stove is about 16 feet away and we'll probably need around 20 feet for the install.
Can this be some sort of Chinese directions misprint (15 meters instead of 1.5) or could there be a valid reason for this?

Suggest following the ABYC standards. If I recall correctly, they call for one, uninterrupted hose all the way to the tank. No metal tubing. They also specify the frequency of support clamps for the hose.

MarkSF 03-12-2019 11:38 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RegisteredUser (Post 2051588550)
Could be referr8ng to solenoid control valve...but i dont know why...:)

The solenoid valve should be at the tank, in the locker.

SchockT 03-12-2019 01:23 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilCarlson (Post 2051588518)
I agree, doesn't matter. Pressure is unaffected by the length of the line, and as long as the diameter is the same or larger, volume delivered to the appliance won't be an issue.

That is incorrect. When sizing gas lines we have to take into account the length of the run and how many bends or elbows there are. There IS pressure drop on long runs which can create problems and cause the appliance to be under fired. The longer runs require larger pipe to reduce the pressure drop.

Having said that, 1.5m seems awfully short. Perhaps they are referring to connecting disposable propane tanks?

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overbored 03-12-2019 01:54 PM

Re: Propane line
 
The gas appliance comes with a given size fitting and the flexible line that would fit the same size fitting would be to small if the line is over the 1.5 meter length. on a four burner you also have to consider how much gas is required if all four burners are used at the same time. most never use all the burners at the same time. besides the line size you have to consider the type and number of tanks that are used at the same time to have enough gas vapor to supply all four burners. propane also requires less tank head space in warm weather then it does in the cold.

Minnewaska 03-12-2019 01:56 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051588476)
....propane countertop stove....

What do you mean by countertop? Is this an installed countertop unit, or a portable unit. The later may be designed for different pressures and portable bottles.

Got a link or make/model to your unit?

boatpoker 03-12-2019 10:43 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Yes. Pressure loss over length is real. Suggest you talk to the manufacturer before ignoring their requirements.

This one does not apply but if you search online you should be able to find a calculator for your size piping.
LPG friction/pressure loss calculator.

capta 03-12-2019 10:54 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051588684)
Yes. Pressure loss over length is real. Suggest you talk to the manufacturer before ignoring their requirements.

This one does not apply but if you search online you should be able to find a calculator for your size piping.
LPG friction/pressure loss calculator.

Well, assuming I'll be using about 2.5 gallons every two or three months on a 16 foot run, that table seems to leave me well below problem level.
Thanks for the info.

jwoytek 03-12-2019 11:38 PM

Re: Propane line
 
I have seen several references online stating a 1.5m recommended maximum length for a flexible hose connection to a hard feedline, in order to accommodate a gimballed installation. It seems this might be standard practice in some areas, but is not the recommendation of the ABYC. Perhaps this is the reason your documentation reads as it does?

Jonathan

boatpoker 03-12-2019 11:56 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoytek (Post 2051588700)
I have seen several references online stating a 1.5m recommended maximum length for a flexible hose connection to a hard feedline, in order to accommodate a gimballed installation. It seems this might be standard practice in some areas, but is not the recommendation of the ABYC. Perhaps this is the reason your documentation reads as it does?

Jonathan

No, ABYC A-1, Marine Liquified Petroleum (LPG) Gas Systems makes no reference to any length whatsoever, whether pipe, tube or hose are used.

boatpoker 03-13-2019 12:05 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Capta, I can't upload pdf's to this site but if you send an email to [email protected] I will respond with the ABYC LPG Standards.

SanderO 03-13-2019 08:42 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051588704)
Capta, I can't upload pdf's to this site but if you send an email to [email protected] I will respond with the ABYC LPG Standards.

You can save a PDF as a JPEG... at least in Bullzip which is a great alternative to Adobe who changed their financial model to a subscription. Bullzip is a single purchase. I switched and love it. Interface is intuitive and easy to pick up. basic version is free! Upgrade is not expensive.

FREE PDF Printer

boatpoker 03-13-2019 09:01 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SanderO (Post 2051588742)
You can save a PDF as a JPEG... at least in Bullzip which is a great alternative to Adobe who changed their financial model to a subscription. Bullzip is a single purchase. I switched and love it. Interface is intuitive and easy to pick up. basic version is free! Upgrade is not expensive.

FREE PDF Printer

Thanks but I don't want any more software.

I tried saving a pdf as a jpeg (didn't know that could be done). It does work but I don't have the patience to upload 34 pages at one photo per page.

SchockT 03-13-2019 02:47 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051588690)
Well, assuming I'll be using about 2.5 gallons every two or three months on a 16 foot run, that table seems to leave me well below problem level.

Thanks for the info.

You are only storing the propane in liquid form. When you use it on your appliances you are drawing vapor off the top of the tank. The regulator reduces that gas pressure to 11" wc, or about 0.4psi. Such low pressure is very sensitive to restriction and pressure drop. At the burner the appliance relies on gas velocity coming through the burner orifice to draw air in to mix with the gas. If pressure and flow are reduced at the burner it may not mix enough oxygen, and you end up with incomplete combustion, which will manifest as yellowish flame, and sooting on your pots. Incomplete combustion also produces carbon monoxide, which, of course, is not a good thing in an enclosed space.

Gas is not something to be trifled with. If you are not sure, consult a gas fitter.

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chicory83 03-14-2019 07:11 PM

Re: Propane line
 
As noted above the pressure drop along a hose depends on the length and number of bends etc. in the hose. Another important factor is the inside diameter of the hose. Using a larger diameter hose will result in less pressure drop. A larger diameter hose that ends in a fitting that will attach directly to your stove might solve any pressure drop problem, should one occur. The trick might be finding one.

geoirishbox 03-14-2019 07:50 PM

Re: Propane line
 

SchockT 03-15-2019 11:32 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geoirishbox (Post 2051589062)

Seriously? I can't read the regulations unless I pay $50?

Apparently safety and education is not as important to ABYC as making money.

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boatpoker 03-15-2019 12:08 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SchockT (Post 2051589182)
Seriously? I can't read the regulations unless I pay $50?

Apparently safety and education is not as important to ABYC as making money.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

First of all, they are not "regulations", they are a recommended and recognised voluntary standard just like SAE, UL, CSA, ANSI and a host of others. There are no "regulations" for propane in pleasure craft in either the US or Canada.

Do you work for free ? Why should they work for free ?

Minnewaska 03-15-2019 03:06 PM

Re: Propane line
 
ABYC is a great organization. However, I'll join the chorus that I'm perplexed why a safety organization puts up a pay wall to access basic safety information. They have done a couple of vids, but way too basic. It strikes me like the American Heart Association won't publish their findings, unless each user pays.

I understand it takes funding to do the research and I'm 100% convinced that it could be raised otherwise. For starters, you could split the information between basic and higher level. No opposition for pay access to higher level. You could raise it, via donation, from industry and this can be done without undue influence. All sort of research areas do this effectively. You could make professional membership and certification require fees. It should be value to a pro to carry their certification.

However, if they are interested in supporting safety in general, more should be published without barrier, IMO. I often hear those that have paid for years, take offense to that. Let's agree to disagree.

capta 03-15-2019 04:42 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Thanks for the replies all.
Since the propane locker was built into the boat and others have made the change from electric to gas on sister ships, I think I'll be fine. I just had never heard of such a short hose restriction before and wanted some input.
Thanks again.

boatpoker 03-15-2019 05:02 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051589234)
ABYC is a great organization. However, I'll join the chorus that I'm perplexed why a safety organization puts up a pay wall to access basic safety information. They have done a couple of vids, but way too basic. It strikes me like the American Heart Association won't publish their findings, unless each user pays.

I understand it takes funding to do the research and I'm 100% convinced that it could be raised otherwise. For starters, you could split the information between basic and higher level. No opposition for pay access to higher level. You could raise it, via donation, from industry and this can be done without undue influence. All sort of research areas do this effectively. You could make professional membership and certification require fees. It should be value to a pro to carry their certification.

However, if they are interested in supporting safety in general, more should be published without barrier, IMO. I often hear those that have paid for years, take offense to that. Let's agree to disagree.

I don't take offence. You pay for all "free" information one way or another.

SchockT 03-16-2019 02:30 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051589190)
First of all, they are not "regulations", they are a recommended and recognised voluntary standard just like SAE, UL, CSA, ANSI and a host of others. There are no "regulations" for propane in pleasure craft in either the US or Canada.

Do you work for free ? Why should they work for free ?

If a yacht surveyor uses those "recommendations" in an insurance survey, and then the insurance company requires me to abide by those "recommendations" then they might as well be regulations.

The fact that the general public cannot even view these "recommendations" without paying $50 for EACH document is ridiculous.

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overbored 03-16-2019 03:37 PM

Re: Propane line
 
That is because the ABYC is not a regulatory agency they are a business disguised as a council with people that get paid for their time to run it. not that it is a bad idea just saying that's why they charge for the docs.

SchockT 03-16-2019 03:54 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capta (Post 2051589270)
Thanks for the replies all.
Since the propane locker was built into the boat and others have made the change from electric to gas on sister ships, I think I'll be fine. I just had never heard of such a short hose restriction before and wanted some input.
Thanks again.

If it were me, I would make the longer run using a larger I.d. hose, and then reduce it down at the appliance.

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boatpoker 03-16-2019 09:09 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SchockT (Post 2051589470)
If a yacht surveyor uses those "recommendations" in an insurance survey, and then the insurance company requires me to abide by those "recommendations" then they might as well be regulations.

The fact that the general public cannot even view these "recommendations" without paying $50 for EACH document is ridiculous.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Then the answer for you is simple. Use a non-Accredited surveyor who does not survey to any standard. Lots of those fly by night guys around that will do it for half the cost of a qualified surveyor to boot.

SanderO 03-17-2019 06:39 AM

Re: Propane line
 
I don't like the idea of monetizing information which serves the interest of public safety. As this applies to recreational and commercial marine vessels it should be supported by manufacturers of boats and marine equipment not the public with access fees.

Minnewaska 03-17-2019 07:55 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Some have said, the ABYC standards are often written in such a technical way that the average DIY user wouldn't be able to follow them. I don't know that to be the case, but understand if it was. Still, as a non-profit safety standards organization, one would think they would publish a user friendly basic guide or have a searchable online database. They also have a fund raising foundation. I'd be surprised if funding couldn't be raised for such an endeavor.

It costs $485 to buy the book of standards. While that could be considered a cost of doing business for a professional, who is distinguishing themselves from lesser informed competitors, it's clearly a barrier for the average boat owner. I read the ABYC mission on their website and it's pretty clear. They are to "be the essential source of technical information for the international marine industry" and exist to "equip our members to be successful". They are really a professional technician and manufacturer focused organization, solely focused on their membership, not a public boating safety organization. That's really too bad, as they are missing a higher calling and have the ability to do more good for the boating community.

In theory, this information is indirectly available via a number of quality maintenance texts that sell for $30-$50.

boatpoker 03-17-2019 09:38 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Anyone may join ABYC and it is not difficult as a member to join one of the various commitees. People who feel strongly that these standards should be freely accessible should join ABYC and change it from the inside.

Minnewaska 03-17-2019 12:47 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051589638)
Anyone may join ABYC and it is not difficult as a member to join one of the various commitees. People who feel strongly that these standards should be freely accessible should join ABYC and change it from the inside.

That's a reasonable point. However, unlike a government organization designed to serve the people, it's a non-profit with a published mission to serve only their membership. It's not like they are failing to do so. I maintain that is untenable, given their opportunity to serve a greater good.

Protesting is a valid form of precipitating change, as well.

SanderO 03-17-2019 12:52 PM

Re: Propane line
 
What's to prevent a group of sailnetters to get together and share the cost of their publication(s)?

boatpoker 03-17-2019 12:58 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051589670)
Protesting is a valid form of precipitating change, as well.

It is, however, protesting here is a wasted effort.
Directing a groundswell of protests to ABYC makes more sense.

You can freely access the legally required standards for Canada and the US online although they are pretty thin gruel.

Minnewaska 03-17-2019 01:03 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051589684)
It is however protesting here is a wasted effort.
Directing a groundswell of protests to ABYC makes more sense.

I wouldn't be so sure. There have been nearly 1,300 views of this thread and only about 10 of us are posting. Social media is pretty effective at spreading the word. ABYC, or any other company, would be wise to monitor the entire internet for mentions. Most sophisticated companies do these days.

MarkofSeaLife 03-17-2019 02:08 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051589614)
It costs $485 to buy the book of standards.


$485!???

Cheap! Then I can win every argument on the forum : "But I have the Book of Standards"

:devil :devil

boatpoker 03-17-2019 11:09 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051589688)
I wouldn't be so sure. There have been nearly 1,300 views of this thread and only about 10 of us are posting. Social media is pretty effective at spreading the word. ABYC, or any other company, would be wise to monitor the entire internet for mentions. Most sophisticated companies do these days.

Another project for you. Join ABYC, join their board and move that they start watching for your posts on sailnet. This is getting a little silly. I'm out.

Minnewaska 03-18-2019 06:52 AM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker (Post 2051589838)
Another project for you. Join ABYC, join their board and move that they start watching for your posts on sailnet. This is getting a little silly. I'm out.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree. This isn't about you, so no need to get personal.

Minnewaska 03-18-2019 07:09 AM

Re: Propane line
 
For giggles, I just looked up how to join ABYC. I saw no provision for membership as a recreational boater. Interesting. If correct, their tax exempt status is solely supporting the trades, not the boaters.

https://abycinc.org/page/join

lillia28 03-19-2019 11:54 AM

Re: Propane line
 
https://abycinc.org/mpage/becomeamember
Recreational Boaters Can Join ABYC
Individual Membership - $185 annual dues

Membership benefits include:

24-hour online access to the Standards, including technical help via phone and email
Bi-annual ABYC magagzine, the Reference Point
Opportunity to participate in technical committees to shape the way Standards are written
Discounts on all classes and certifications
Online education discounts
Free resume posting on the Marine Industry Career Network
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It used to be less expensive, so either no recreational boaters are joining or a whole bunch are. I was seriously thinking of joining when I was rewiring my boat, but I found most of the relevant section for free on line. Some caution in that the language is not necessarily user friendly.
The free factor is a libertarian argument. While you could argue that it should be a Government function paid by taxes, non boaters could object that that are paying for nothing. In the absence of Gov regulation there is a private organization filling the role. How will they be funded except by participant fees?
Not taking sides, it is the world we live in. I spent hours on line, bought several books, got advice from forums and suppliers. In the long run, I suspect that $185 would have saved me money, but I never accurately account for boat expenses, because I really do not want to know.

Minnewaska 03-19-2019 01:27 PM

Re: Propane line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lillia28 (Post 2051590144)
https://abycinc.org/mpage/becomeamember
Recreational Boaters Can Join ABYC
Individual Membership - $185 annual dues

Thank you. I see there are separate sites for industry and recreational members now.

Quote:

It used to be less expensive, so either no recreational boaters are joining or a whole bunch are. I was seriously thinking of joining when I was rewiring my boat, but I found most of the relevant section for free on line.
I agree the price point is too high to create volume. I would love to know what fraction of boaters go for it, say compared to BoatUS membership. When I can buy a $50 text book, is there sufficient excess value to join? I bet $50/yr could be attractive, particularly access to the help desk, which might be limited to a certain number of calls. Then again, they'd need to attract 3x the members to break even. I bet it could easily be done, just like BoatUS attracts members for a cause. This could be a cause folks would support at the right price point.

Quote:

In the absence of Gov regulation there is a private organization filling the role. How will they be funded except by participant fees?
The same way the American Heart Association funds their research. They charge for classes and certifications, but rely on fund raising and sponsorships for the rest. Marinas, manufacturers, insurance companies, etc, etc, would all have a vested interest in boaters doing things more safely. There would arguable be a return on their investment. I'm absolutely certain the model could be funded without pounding the recreational user. Imagine if AHA said they finished a study on exercise or certain foods, but if you're interested you had to send them $185. They just tell everyone what they learned.

In the end, it seems ABYC is focused on the trades, who get membership value by distinguishing themselves from non-certified competitors. That's a good model too. I think that focus is somehow keeping them from making full use of the good they could do, with the tax exempt advantage they receive.


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