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post #11 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

When applying more than one coat of the Interprotect, alternating coats of white and gray makes finding holidays much easier.
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post #12 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Yes, I plan to smooth the surface with epoxy, then 5 coats of interprotect 2000E then 3 coats of interlux antifouling.

That part I can do, it doesn't worry me too much. But I think, I would want to try to get as much cabin foam out as I can, to at least minimize the hazard.

I am asking the owner about the exact type of foam used to do further research. It is Polyurethane, but maybe there is a version with retardant that I don't know.
Fire retardant treatments for PU does exist, but usually only improve (slightly) the ignition and flame spread properties. Once involved in a fire it does little. Don't quote me on this since I haven't studied furniture fires in a little while, but as far as I know the improvements are pretty minor. The retardants used also contain bromines or other toxic chemicals so now the fire effluents are even worse (probably matters little since you'd likely be dead if you inhale significant smoke in a boat anyway). As you said polymers also release HCN gas which can increase CO uptake and knock you unconscious at low concentrations, much lower than for CO. Again if you breathe enough that this is an issue it might be too late anyway, though not always. In fire investigations we do look at HCN concentrations in victims.
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post #13 of 21 Old 05-08-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Fire retardant treatments for PU does exist, but usually only improve (slightly) the ignition and flame spread properties. Once involved in a fire it does little. Don't quote me on this since I haven't studied furniture fires in a little while, but as far as I know the improvements are pretty minor. The retardants used also contain bromines or other toxic chemicals so now the fire effluents are even worse (probably matters little since you'd likely be dead if you inhale significant smoke in a boat anyway). As you said polymers also release HCN gas which can increase CO uptake and knock you unconscious at low concentrations, much lower than for CO. Again if you breathe enough that this is an issue it might be too late anyway, though not always. In fire investigations we do look at HCN concentrations in victims.
Thank you Scandium, the foam used was Touch and Foam and is described as CCMC Listed, Class 1 fire resistance. Do you have information on its safety?
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Thank you Scandium, the foam used was Touch and Foam and is described as CCMC Listed, Class 1 fire resistance. Do you have information on its safety?
Sorry I'm not terribly knowledgeable about fire testing of products so I don't know about that one. It appears that refers to classifications that allows exposed installations in attics and crawl spaces, without an ignition barrier. How safe does that make it in a boat? Can't say, unfortunately. It does sound like this is not the intended use of the product (if it's exposed on the inside walls of the boat?), but how much that increases you hazard I don't know. The manufacturer claims it will "self-extinguishing when flame is removed", but without knowing what kind of flame that means little. I suppose you could always call Touch 'n Seal/dab and ask what they think about this install. It does sound a bit strange..

It appears that Touch n Seal and Touch n Foam are two different products. Foam is the stuff you spray around windows and should not be used to insulate walls. Seal is for insulating attics, and is the fire rated one. I assume that's what the owners used.

Would I buy the boat? Not sure. It's well insulated at least The foam is claimed to be safe. I'd definitely get some smoke alarms, and be extra careful with ignition sources. (check your wiring if it runs behind/inside the foam!)
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-08-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Sorry I'm not terribly knowledgeable about fire testing of products so I don't know about that one. It appears that refers to classifications that allows exposed installations in attics and crawl spaces, without an ignition barrier. How safe does that make it in a boat? Can't say, unfortunately. It does sound like this is not the intended use of the product (if it's exposed on the inside walls of the boat?), but how much that increases you hazard I don't know. The manufacturer claims it will "self-extinguishing when flame is removed", but without knowing what kind of flame that means little. I suppose you could always call Touch 'n Seal/dab and ask what they think about this install. It does sound a bit strange..

It appears that Touch ‘n Seal and Touch ‘n Foam are two different products. Foam is the stuff you spray around windows and should not be used to insulate walls. Seal is for insulating attics, and is the fire rated one. I assume that's what the owners used.

Would I buy the boat? Not sure. It's well insulated at least The foam is claimed to be safe. I'd definitely get some smoke alarms, and be extra careful with ignition sources. (check your wiring if it runs behind/inside the foam!)
Thank you very much Scandium, It's a great idea to contact the manufacturing company. I think that regardless of is safety, I should try to remove as much as I can from all the accessible areas. It is not all over the boat and the most difficult area would be the V Berth, which has no wiring through as far as I can tell, except maybe for the pilot lights in front. I need to check that.
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post #16 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Thank you very much Scandium, It's a great idea to contact the manufacturing company. I think that regardless of is safety, I should try to remove as much as I can from all the accessible areas. It is not all over the boat and the most difficult area would be the V Berth, which has no wiring through as far as I can tell, except maybe for the pilot lights in front. I need to check that.
If you do remove some put a lighter, or blowtorch, to it and see how well it burns If it really is non-combustible under normal circumstances maybe you'll want to keep it. If it bursts into flame with thick black smoke maybe not..
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post #17 of 21 Old 05-08-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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If you do remove some put a lighter, or blowtorch, to it and see how well it burns If it really is non-combustible under normal circumstances maybe you'll want to keep it. If it bursts into flame with thick black smoke maybe not..
Lol, yes I was going to do that, is pretty easy to cut out a piece. I just wrote to touch and foam too, to ask about the fire risk. I doubled check the product and it's the sealant variety.
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post #18 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

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Lol, yes I was going to do that, is pretty easy to cut out a piece. I just wrote to touch and foam too, to ask about the fire risk. I doubled check the product and it's the sealant variety.
Great, please let us know what they say.
As mentioned it was my sense that the fire rating test was for attics and non-occupied spaces. Where the code assume people, and hence many ignition sources, don't go regularly (not to say there aren't any). So I'd guess the manufacturer says this is a non-approved install, but who knows.

edit: and if you want to help the field of fire science (and my job) also post the result of your ignition test

Last edited by Scandium; 05-08-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

Insulation rated OK for return air plenums are much less hazardous.

I'd want to get more info on the firm did the job, is that application pretty common, at least mainstream, etc,

in what country was the work performed? Did insurance know about it?

If all that passes the smell test, likely no need to become an expert yourself, just exercising a bit extra caution probably more than makes up for it.
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post #20 of 21 Old 05-08-2019
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Re: Polyurethane foam insulation

I have no idea about the flame properties of this foam however I do have significant experience in marine fire investigation. There are few things more toxic and harder to extinguish than burning polyester resin. If your boat catches fire and you can't get it out in two minutes ...... get off the boat, foam or no foam.
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The hysterical laughter you hear as you drive a way in your"new" boat ..... is the seller.
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