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post #21 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

I知 always wrong!, Even when I provide my direct personal experience facts some forum person will spin it that I知 wrong

I bet FOF would have exchanged those blades if the OP hadn稚 waited so long etc. I believe the op even said this. I致e read numerous stories of them doing this.

I知 done with this thread so I can spend some time learning my boat.

Don't blow air up my rear, be useful and blow it at the sails!
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post #22 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
That is not precisely the case, Martec props can be repitched and Martec does it pretty cheaply. Gori used to be willing to repitch their props. Most feathering props have adjustable pitches.
Martec and Gori folding props can be repitched only in a very narrow range. Maybe an inch at most. And for the Gori, I believe this is only for their racing prop, which is a flat 2-bladed clapper style like Martec.

I don't believe Gori's much better cruising folding props can be repitched, but I am not sure on that.

The reason for this ability is that they are pretty bad folding prop designs that are mostly only used on racing boats because of their low drag. The low drag is because they are pretty much flat boards with a bit of twist to them - which makes them some of the worse cruising props.

If one wanted to chose a folding prop based on being able to get the blades repitched in the future, then one has limited, and rather poor choices. Pretty much only the two mentioned.

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post #23 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Engine mfg's don't recommend RPM ranges for fun.
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post #24 of 33 Old 05-15-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: flexofold review propeller

I reported the problem immediately after installation and told them what i was planning and they never told me about any time limit and the time limit is NOT on their written warranty! Check it out on their website. Even if it is written in some hidden place they had an obligation to tell me during our discourse. I was in constant communication and let them know what I was doing at every step. I was just trying to solve the problem. As we all know on boats not everything is crystal clear. I wanted to make sure it wasn't a problem on my side. I actually thought they were working with me until they surprised me and told me that if i wanted smaller blades i would have to buy them. Its their fault there was any delay. They kept insisting that it was properly sized and that the problem was on my side.

If they had told me i would have returned it immediately and bought a max prop or some other propeller from a US distributor. Flexofold sells direct from Denmark and has no US presence so there is no realistic legal recourse. This alone may be a good enough reason to avoid them. So there is nothing I can do except document the case on social media as a previous post has suggested. Thank you for the post. I will do this if they don't cooperate. I will give them a chance.

Another post brings up an interesting issue. What do they do with blades and/or hubs that are returned after being installed and used? Does it matter whether they have been in the water less than 2 weeks or more if they show no signs of use? Do they just melt them down again and make new ones? After they have been installed and run they are definately not "new."

I have not seen any "used" blades or hubs or "refurbished" blades or hubs or "like new" blades or hubs available from Flexofold and there must be returns. Is it legal to sell "used" blades or hubs as new without disclosure?

This is what i found:

"Federal truth-in-advertising law, administered by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, requires that refurbished and reconditioned items are properly labeled."

Interesting. So they would have to melt them down and recast them in order to sell them as new; otherwise they would have to be labeled as refurbished or reconditioned. I wonder if my original blades were "new?" I wonder if my 2,000 dollar replacement blades are "new?"
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post #25 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

FOF addressed this point with me. If the blades have been in the water less than 8 days, and they have not been treated or fouled, then FOF sends them to a "professional for glassblowing" (might be a translation thing), who attempts to make them look like new by removing any dark shadows in the gearing, teeth, and stampings.

Apparently, they are then able to resell them as new (which they essentially are). Otherwise, I think they throw them away.

I don't know if this violates any laws, but don't see it being much different than returning unused or tried on items to a store and having them put back on the shelf and resold as new.

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post #26 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

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Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
Engine mfg's don't recommend RPM ranges for fun.
I addressed this earlier in noting that our Volvo engines have a recommendation to be propped so that the engine reaches 3200-3600rpm at WOT. This is on a 3600rpm engine. Our new/different Volvo's also recommend similar - only with a different absolute range because they are governed differently.

So it isn't universally true that all engines must be propped so they are able to reach their governed WOT under power.

I don't know about the OP's Yanmar recommendation, but do know that these engines are not rated to operate at their governed WOT rpm for more than a few minutes, and that rated continual operation is much lower rpm. So a prop that maxes out at a slightly lower rpm than governed WOT might not be a bad prop match (the OP reached 91% of governed WOT).

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post #27 of 33 Old 05-15-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: flexofold review propeller

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
FOF addressed this point with me. If the blades have been in the water less than 8 days, and they have not been treated or fouled, then FOF sends them to a "professional for glassblowing" (might be a translation thing), who attempts to make them look like new by removing any dark shadows in the gearing, teeth, and stampings.

Apparently, they are then able to resell them as new (which they essentially are). Otherwise, I think they throw them away.

I don't know if this violates any laws, but don't see it being much different than returning unused or tried on items to a store and having them put back on the shelf and resold as new.

Mark
Sounds like they are making up the rules as they go along to me. Now there is an 8 day rule. So what about the unwritten two week rule? Two weeks is more than 8 days. So they throw the ones away between 8 days and two weeks? I doubt it. So they throw away one that is 15 days old? I doubt it.

What this does tell me is that they are selling refurbished products as new every time they accept a return in violation of the Federal truth-in-advertising law.

Sending them out to someone who attempts to make them look like new sounds more than a little like refurbished. If that is not refurbished what is? They may be perfectly functional but they are refurbished.

I don't have a problem putting on a returned propeller blade as long as its functional (its not a toothbrush) but then why won't they take my perfectly functional blades back if they have to go to someone who makes them look like new. I defy anyone who can tell the difference between my blades and blades that have been in the water for less than 8 days. This is more reason that they should accept mine back. I don't think there is a 8 day rule or a 14 day rule at the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. I don't know but I doubt there is a 8 day rule or a 14 day rule in Norway!

Under the circumstances and lack of notice they should make good on mine. I was never told the 8 day rule or the 14 day rule or any rule. The warranty says 3 years.

BTW, if you have a dispute with them their website says you have to proceed in a court in Norway. I think all manufacturers should offshore themselves, sell direct, and avoid liability in the country they are selling to.
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post #28 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
Engine mfg's don't recommend RPM ranges for fun.
I addressed this earlier in noting that our Volvo engines have a recommendation to be propped so that the engine reaches 3200-3600rpm at WOT. This is on a 3600rpm engine. Our new/different Volvo's also recommend similar - only with a different absolute range because they are governed differently.

So it isn't universally true that all engines must be propped so they are able to reach their governed WOT under power.

I don't know about the OP's Yanmar recommendation, but do know that these engines are not rated to operate at their governed WOT rpm for more than a few minutes, and that rated continual operation is much lower rpm. So a prop that maxes out at a slightly lower rpm than governed WOT might not be a bad prop match (the OP reached 91% of governed WOT).

Mark
I agree that it depends entirely on how the engine is governed. Some are governed so that WOT will put them right in their sweet spot, all things being perfect. Others are governed so that WOT just keeps dumping fuel in to them until they spin themselves in to oblivion.

If OP's Yanmar is governed so that it is supposed to spin 3800 rpm, then it is lugging at 3450, which he indicated by the excessive smoke coming from the exhaust. It is still receiving the fuel to spin 3800 rpm, but can't acheive it. That increases combustion pressures, blow-by, and speeds up engine wear.
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post #29 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

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Originally Posted by dm567 View Post
I reported the problem immediately after installation and told them what i was planning and they never told me about any time limit and the time limit is NOT on their written warranty!.....
Like I've said, I think they should make this good for you, but your arguments are starting to get emotion, more than logical. FTC refurbished regs really don't have anything to do with this situation. What they can or can't call new, may or may not have anything to do with their imposed deadlines. It was just a musing.

You've not said how long you actually had them installed and underwater.

Are you trying to handle this by email or are you speaking with someone?


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post #30 of 33 Old 05-15-2019
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Re: flexofold review propeller

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanM26 View Post
Engine mfg's don't recommend RPM ranges for fun.
Excellent point. My Volvo has a published max RPM of 3000. Some offer a range. I'm not supposed to operate at it for very long, but it does indicate proper prop pitch if it will get there at WOT, while underway. It's an annual spring commissioning test that lasts a few seconds.

The opposing anecdotes provided above are nothing more than that. A more aggressively pitched prop will definitely perform better in certain circumstances. However, it's still bad for the engine.

My Grandmother lived to 97 and smoked every day. That's not evidence that it is a good idea for everyone else.


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