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Hit a rock with chartered boat in Sardinia

7K views 47 replies 20 participants last post by  RegisteredUser 
#1 ·
Hi guys.

This is my first post here but I'm a bit desperate for advice. Apologies if this is the wrong forum.

I've been a skipper for chartered tours for 4 years now, never ran aground until yesterday.

Am sailing a 2017 Dufour 412.

I thought I was done navigating the shallow passage between Maddalena and Caprera, full of rocks, was going slow and had people on watch. A few seconds of distraction and overconfidence and just as I was reaching deeper waters on my way out, I hit the only rock surrounded by 10m depth... Bad luck but also stupid of me, was a clearly charted rock, I was just looking at the green buoy ahead.

Anyways, I can't change that now. Thankfully, the damage doesn't seem too bad. The keel bolts/hull all intact from the inside, no visible cracks, the bilge is completely dry. The keel isn't dented, only surface scratched.

But it's still undeniably damage which is my fault, and the damage deposit is €3500.

My question is: based on the pictures of the keel damage, is it reasonable for a charter company to insist on having the boat pulled out of the water for repairs? What should I reasonably expect to pay for this -- the whole damage deposit?

Thanks for your hopefully reassuring, but otherwise useful in any case, advice.

Cheers.
 

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#2 ·
Well done getting good photos.

I don't know, but the experts on this forum will help.

Remember that many charter boats are not actually owned by the charter company but owned by normal people that put into charter on an agreement with the charter company. So if you owned the boat and you let someone else use it and they hit a rock, would you require a haul out for an in-depth (great pun! :) ) inspection?

As you can probably feel, like renting a car etc, they have ways of extracting max dollars from you. You are going to have to be very careful and fight hard not to kiss that Eur 3,500 away!!

Mark
 
#4 ·
Unfortunately a haul out is a wise move. Often the damage is at the junction of the keel/keel stub to the canoe body and not visible without close inspection. This is most common at the aft end. Damage may even occur without the surface of the structures being disturbed but structural integrity lost. The involved areas may flex and return to nearly their pregrounding formation but strength lost. Frames and stringers maybe damaged internally. Even in the absence of much noticeable damage to an untrained eye a surveyor may find extensive damage at the haul.
They say it’s not if you ever had a grounding but when. So well designed boats are built with this in mind. Unfortunately I know of boats that were considered totaled with no appreciable damage I could discern looking at them from 10’ away while they were on jack stands. Cost of repair not considered justified by value of the boat.
Best you could do is be present at the survey or at least read it. Depending on outcome get an independent survey. If in agreement you’re unfortunately out of luck.
I’m much more stressed by coastal sailing. This possibility is one of the reasons why.
 
#6 ·
Also, it's important to look on the bright side: if you have caused some big damage to the boat you are capped at €3,500, you don't have to manage the repairs, nor ever have to worry if the fix is good.

Boat ownership can be devastating sometimes but you are insulated from it. In this occasion Chartering may have the best outcome.

Good luck. :)
 
#12 ·
Also, it's important to look on the bright side: if you have caused some big damage to the boat you are capped at €3,500, you don't have to manage the repairs, nor ever have to worry if the fix is good......
Not having to worry about quality of the fix is a modest silver lining.

I hope the charter contract and insurance bear out the cap. That is not always the case. In fact, I've seen disclaimers where you have zero coverage, if you take the boat into prohibited areas, for example. In the US anyway, the insurance company can also have the right to pursue their loss against whomever caused it, unless the operator was the insured party, or additional insured party. No idea how the rules work overseas.

Not trying to create stress, just giving the OP some things to check out and get their ducks in a row.
 
#7 ·
Maybe stay in communication with the charter company to keep tabs on the choices they are making. There may be a choice of where it is hauled. They may haul for longer than needed (to get other stuff done that had nothing to do with the grounding), etc.
 
#8 ·
I agree with others. They will want to and it will need to be hauled.

However over here in the Med (where was the boat chartered out of? especially in Sicily you could haul and providing damage is just superficial as indicated you should get away with it for less than your 3500.

My whole haulout bill in Malta (dearer than most yards in Sicily) was less than 3500 and it included topside and stainless polishing, anodes a whole month on the hard and a bunch of other things.

I'm sorry you have had this misfortune. Best of luck with the charter company.
 
#10 ·
How do you know you did the damage? Maybe it was there before you chartered the boat. Are there pictures of the keel taken before you got on board? I wouldn't volunteer information. Good luck. Yea you bumped into something and you think it was a rock but did you actually see the keel make contact?
 
#13 ·
The smaller operation we've chartered bareboats through the last 3 or 4 times, dives the hull and take pictures upon every return. You leave a cash deposit and the rest held on a credit card, for the deductible. You don't get the cash handed back, until the diver returns with the photos and a thumbs up.

I used to find it fairly stressful, not that I've ever suspected I've done any damage. Considering that folks may not own up to their mistakes on the charter right before me, I'm now pretty happy they do it each time.
 
#18 ·
Minnewaska, when you did those charters and they took pictures of the hull upon your return, were you able to see the "before" pictures prior to your taking control of the vessel? And if so, how would you know the "before" pictures were authentic? The cynic in me is seeing how such a scheme could be a money maker for the charter company. I've never chartered, so maybe this is all done during check in when you arrive. I just don't know.
 
#20 ·
I've never asked to see them, but I recall you are offered. Long ago, I began taking a look at the bottom on my first night out. Once, it was so fouled, it slowed us down by at least a full knot, probably more. Never went back to that operator, although, they weren't all bad, as they tried to make up for it. Every bottom I've ever seen from CYOA yacht charters has been just fine.
 
#21 ·
A number of charter companies (including CYOA, I recall) require a signed confirmation from you at check-in after your charter that you have not touched the bottom or grounded. I have been told this is because some charterers did not report damage, hoping to get away with it and thereby exposed the charter company to liability in the event that there was damage that is not immediately visible, particularly if there was a subsequent problem. I would expect that making a false statement may invalidate the insurance cover and thereby remove the cap on liability provided by the deposit. YMMV...
 
#24 ·
I won't speculate on the extent of the damage, or cost of repairs, but I will comment on the need to report this to the charter company and the need to haul out and do a survey.

In recent years there has been three notable cases where a charter/teaching boats have been damaged in groundings, lost its keel, and lives were lost when the keels came off. There is a lot of attention on this issue at the moment, since boats are losing their keels with increasing frequency, not all of them dramatically, but enough cases that there is a global microscope on this issue.

Given the trials and settlements by the charter companies and boat owners, at this point it would be seen as negligence and potentially criminal negligence if the charter company did not haul out the boat and have it properly surveyed. In this case the boat in question is a comparatively lightly built, value oriented, coastal cruiser and so hitting a rock at any speed and no matter how glancing a blow would especially make the boat suspect for having damage.

As others have noted, the damage in a grounding may not be visible from the outside of the boat or exterior of the components that are delaminated or otherwise damaged. Its only through a systematic inspection that the absense or the full extent of the damage can be determined. For example, in at least one of the recent fatal keel loss cases, there was minor damage to a frame that was repaired but there was unobserved damage in the form of delamination of the hull forward of the keel. Over time the delamination peeled aft until the keel and the bottom of the hull pulled away.

In my mind, the charter company would not be acting appropriately or ethically if they did not haul the boat and have it carefully surveyed.

But beyond the responsibility of the charter company, I respectfully suggest that in my personal opinion, whatever excuses one might be able to come up with for not reporting the grounding, there is an ethical responsibility to report the incident. In my mind, failure to report the incident would make you negligent and if per chance, there was serious enough damage that the keel was indeed lost and worse yet if lives were lost, the moral responsibility would fall heavily on your shoulders.

In a broader sense, the few charter agreements that I have seen include the ability to purchase insurance that covers a deductible for damage to the boat while in your use. I don't know if that was the case here, but the lesson in this for all of us is that we might want to more carefully consider whether to cough up the money for that supplemental insurance. In the words of the old Dave Bromberg song, "A man should never gamble with more than he has to lose".

Jeff
 
#27 ·
But beyond the responsibility of the charter company, I respectfully suggest that in my personal opinion, whatever excuses one might be able to come up with for not reporting the grounding, there is an ethical responsibility to report the incident.
A Scout is : TRUSTWORTHY, Loyal, HELPFUL, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent

I'm 71 years old and I recite the Scout Law to myself at least once a week.
 
#25 ·
I didn't see anywhere where the deposit was a cap on potential liability. In my experience, whenever I've rented something, any "deposit" I put down is only that: a deposit towards whatever sum I actually owe.

Here, I would guess that hauling the boat and getting a surveyor is going to cost at least 1000 euros.
 
#26 ·
I didn't see anywhere where the deposit was a cap on potential liability. In my experience, whenever I've rented something, any "deposit" I put down is only that: a deposit towards whatever sum I actually owe.
Again, my fault for not being more explicit.

A lot of charter contracts give you the option (for a fee) or explicitly include qualified charterers to be covered by the vessel insurance. The deposit is therefore set at a level that covers the deductible under the insurance. It was an assumption on my part but based on experience of being on both sides of a charter contract over the years.
 
#29 ·
I had basically the identical scenario happen to me on a charter a while ago. This was in the states, Chesapeake Bay, I managed to find one of the 5 or so rocks in the otherwise entirely mud and sand bay. My impact was more of a skip/bump stop rather than an immediate hard stop with the bow pitching into the water or something like that. In my inexperience I still thought the boat was going to sink and we'd all die, but everything was fine. I had a $1000 damage deposit/limit. I told the company when I returned, fully expecting I'd likely lose the full grand. The charter company operators were mostly cool, maybe in part because the impact was in part due to the fact that their char plotter didn't show the depth properly where I ran aground. They put it up on a sling, took a look and said all's good, just scratched paint, and charged me for the cost of the lift, $250. Hopefully you'll have a similar outcome. That 3500 Euro is a doozy of a deposit, I guess their insurance deductible is that high. From the pics, it looks like your damage was similar to mine, that definitely appears to be on the front bottom of the bulb. In my inexperienced opinion any sailboat that can't handle a grounding like that is real turd of a boat. Bumping into the bottom at modest speed is pretty well within the design parameters for such a thing. If doing so causes the hull to delaminate and fall off the boat months later that was some crap engineering. Hull speed into a concrete or steel piling, maybe different story. Not that any of that opinion is of consequence to your issue at hand though. Good luck.
 
#32 ·
My recollection is that dinghies are covered by some charter companies, provided that they are locked with a chain or cable - or at least, I have heard people being told that they will be liable unless they bring the severed cable with the locked padlock still in it.....
 
#41 ·
All good. To each their own. I like to snorkel, I also like a good beach bar. I couldn’t do either all day, every day.

The extra vig to bring a crew is pretty small, compared to the cost of the boat. At least where we’ve chartered. I think we’ve spent more going to restaurants than a cook would cost, per day.

I notice, however, that many boats offered as “crewed only” are typically much nicer, bigger, more expensive boats themselves. That’s probably why it looks pricey. However, you can bring along a crew on any boat that can berth them. We prefer not to have strangers along on vacation, let alone enjoy the mission. Launching the dink and scoping out the sites is part of the fun here.
 
#42 ·
One of the reasons I like cruising on my own boat is by talking with other cruisers and locales get to know where the turbidity is low, where the fish,birds, wildlife, octopus, lobsters, Hippocampi or what ever we’re interested in at the moment are. If I’m not into snorkeling at the moment there’s always tomorrow and there’s no restrictions beyond common sense on where to go and when.
In both the windwards and leewards some of the best places we’ve been to have not had a charter boat in sight. Often because the approach or anchoring is difficult. Some times because there’s no services what so ever.
Being on my own boat is freedom. For me being served on is a burden if it’s longer than the length of a dinner. I take pride in caring for my boat and the small things like being conservative in water use. Going food shopping or even to the laundromat is an adventure as is rubbing elbows with the locals on the bus instead of taking a taxi. We can live large but choose to live small as it’s real and find it a much richer experience.
I’ve never been on a cruise ship. Only been in resorts for destination weddings. Never chartered. Perhaps will do so just to see Galapagos, Maldives and Alaska. Have nothing against it. Similarly have been in just about all the countries in Europe but prefer to wander on my own than do a tour. Rather spend a month in one place than a few days in many. Different gestalt. Not better. Just different.
 
#47 · (Edited)
One of the reasons I like cruising on my own boat is by talking with other cruisers and locales get to know where the turbidity is low, where the fish,birds, wildlife, octopus, lobsters, Hippocampi or what ever we're interested in at the moment are. If I'm not into snorkeling at the moment there's always tomorrow and there's no restrictions beyond common sense on where to go and when.
In both the windwards and leewards some of the best places we've been to have not had a charter boat in sight. Often because the approach or anchoring is difficult. Some times because there's no services what so ever.
Being on my own boat is freedom. For me being served on is a burden if it's longer than the length of a dinner. I take pride in caring for my boat and the small things like being conservative in water use. Going food shopping or even to the laundromat is an adventure as is rubbing elbows with the locals on the bus instead of taking a taxi. We can live large but choose to live small as it's real and find it a much richer experience.
I've never been on a cruise ship. Only been in resorts for destination weddings. Never chartered. Perhaps will do so just to see Galapagos, Maldives and Alaska. Have nothing against it. Similarly have been in just about all the countries in Europe but prefer to wander on my own than do a tour. Rather spend a month in one place than a few days in many. Different gestalt. Not better. Just different.
I agree with you, independent cruising is also my thing, but yeah it's different strokes for different folks and I think if it's what people do want to do there is a lot to recommend a crewed charter.

I make this observation as someone who has owned and cruised boats for 20 years.......that more and more I am now seeing people who buy a boat, sign up for a lifestyle thinking it will be lobster lunches and sunset rum punches after a snorkel and they sail off without realising how much actual hardwork owning and cruising your own boat actually is.

It's rewarding sure, but you do work hard for the experience of independent cruising. Particularly on a modest cruising boat the maintenance lists are long.....doing laundry our laundry is an adventure!

So it's not for everyone. If want to have a 'sailing experience' somewhere nice then plenty of people would probably be better off going on amazing charter for two weeks a year.
 
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