Florida is at it again - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 113Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
Senior Member
 
TakeFive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Swarthmore, PA
Posts: 5,058
Thanks: 26
Thanked 144 Times in 133 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The argument that relies on the way navigable waters had been originally regulated 200 years ago, will be refuted with witch burning and slavery. Laws change. That's directly their point for introducing legislation to do so.
Yes, but are there Federal limitations that supersede the states' ability to legislate over this? NJ shore towns' ability to ban non-residents from their beaches was overturned overturned in the Federal courts. Does similar issues apply here?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
USCG Certified Captain, OUPV and 50 Ton Master
ASA Certified 101/103/104/105/106



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2001 Catalina 34MkII Tall Rig Wing Keel Breakin' Away, Universal Diesel M35B, Mantus 35 lb. anchor, sailing out of Rock Hall Landing Marina
TakeFive is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
You really are funny!!
 
chrisncate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,781
Thanks: 19
Thanked 37 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Florida is at it again

I did some minor reading on the public trust doctrine, what legal arguments to counter are Florida/Florida homeowners using against the public trust doctrine?
chrisncate is offline  
post #13 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
Member
 
JimMcGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marathon, Florida
Posts: 2,399
Thanks: 101
Thanked 85 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
There are many parts of the country where there is little choice. In my own stomping grounds Spa Creek and Back Creek in Annapolis are not wide enough to swing 200' clear from docks and shores. Similarly the upper reaches of the Magothy River, Granary Creek and Dividing Creek off the Wye, common anchorages along the tributaries to the Patuxent and Potomac Rivers, and much more.

In Florida the proposed restrictions would turn almost all of Southwest Florida into a no-anchoring zone. The shape of canals, lakes, and ponds really limits anchoring space.
OK as someone who sails and who also just bought a home on a Florida waterway I can see a LOT of room for compromise if some common sense is applied.

Auspicious raises a good point. One area of compromise could be that areas that have historically been used as anchorages would remain anchorages. If you buy a home fronting an anchorage you should have a reasonable expectation that people will anchor there.

While towns would not be able to restrict anchoring they could for example enforce noise ordinances after 10PM. So there would be some recourse against bad actors.

Another compromise could be to limit the time (days) a boat could be anchored. This would prevent derelict vessels but allow a cruiser to wait out the weather.

Remember not every waterfront homeowner in Florida owns a multi-million dollar mansion and most are not spoiled billionaires. In fact most waterfront homeowners in Florida are probably boaters themselves.

Currently Boatless

The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective." - Henry David Thoreau

Last edited by JimMcGee; 03-19-2015 at 04:17 PM.
JimMcGee is online now  
 
post #14 of 471 Old 03-19-2015 Thread Starter
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
If you buy a home fronting an anchorage you should have a reasonable expectation that people will anchor there.
I suggest that if you buy a waterfront home you should expect people to anchor there.

I also suggest that if you have a dock you should reasonably expect (if you have any competence at all) to be able to get your own boats on and off your dock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
While towns would not be able to restrict anchoring they could for example enforce noise ordinances after 10PM. So there would be some recourse against bad actors.
To date, in the anchor wars the waterfront houses have been the sources of noise.

In my opinion what anchorage restrictions are appropriate should be at the State level, not by towns and other localities. Is it asking too much for cruisers to expect consistent regulation in a State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Another compromise could be to limit the time (days) a boat could be anchored. This would prevent derelict vessels but allow a cruiser to wait out the weather.
Why? There are lots of ways to directly address derelict vessels without restricting the rights of law-abiding people. There are in fact existing laws that address derelict vessels. Unfortunately there is no funding to deal with the problem. The politicians are proposing to pass laws that hurt lots of people, driven by a small number of wealthy waterfront landowners who are motivated entirely by keeping anchored boats out of "their" view over waters they do not own.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
post #15 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
Member
 
JimMcGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marathon, Florida
Posts: 2,399
Thanks: 101
Thanked 85 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I suggest that if you buy a waterfront home you should expect people to anchor there.

I also suggest that if you have a dock you should reasonably expect (if you have any competence at all) to be able to get your own boats on and off your dock.
Why the insult???? I never mentioned docking????

Because I bought a house with a dock I'm the enemy now?

And in the case of the canal behind our place there really isn't room to anchor in the channel without restricting vessel traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
To date, in the anchor wars the waterfront houses have been the sources of noise.
Again, not sure where that came from? Noise ordinances go both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
In my opinion what anchorage restrictions are appropriate should be at the State level, not by towns and other localities. Is it asking too much for cruisers to expect consistent regulation in a State?
I suggested no such thing. I was agreeing with you that some areas, while narrow, have historically been anchorages and should not be restricted.

I would disagree that they should be regulated at the state level. Navigable waterways should be Federally regulated under a well defined set of rules to prevent local cat fights. That way if I'm cruising south down the ICW I don't have a different set of laws in every state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Why? There are lots of ways to directly address derelict vessels without restricting the rights of law-abiding people. There are in fact existing laws that address derelict vessels. Unfortunately there is no funding to deal with the problem.
I'm suggesting a compromise at 30 days. maybe that could be rephrased to limit anchoring to 30 days if you are outside a designated anchorage.

It wouldn't make much sense for someone to anchor their vessel permanently as a liveaboard in the middle of a 40' wide channel in the middle of a residential neighborhood would it? I'm not talking about the ICW here. I can think of one neighborhood on Big Pine where there's barely enough room for two center consoles to pass in the channel. A boat anchored there would be a hazard to navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
The politicians are proposing to pass laws that hurt lots of people, driven by a small number of wealthy waterfront landowners who are motivated entirely by keeping anchored boats out of "their" view over waters they do not own.
I can't speak to who's driving the laws or to their motivation.

My point is most waterfront home owners aren't billionaires. Most are regular people who are also boat owners. Why not tone down the rhetoric and tap into them for support?

Currently Boatless

The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective." - Henry David Thoreau
JimMcGee is online now  
post #16 of 471 Old 03-19-2015 Thread Starter
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Florida is at it again

For starters, neither of us gets to decide so this is just a discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Why the insult???? I never mentioned docking?
I intended no insult. My point is that homeowners with marine infrastructure like private docks have a reasonable expectation to get on and off their docks, just as slipholders in marinas do, and users of boat ramps do. I think 200' is excessive but access is reasonable. I think that stand offs from bulkheads aren't appropriate. I don't think a 12' jetski needs 200' to get on and off the dock. Frankly I don't think a 40' boat needs 200'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Because I bought a house with a dock I'm the enemy now?
Nope. I want you on our side. *grin*

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
And in the case of the canal behind our place there really isn't room to anchor in the channel without restricting vessel traffic.
And that may be the case. Send me lat and long and I'll check charts and we can engage civilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Again, not sure where that came from? Noise ordinances go both ways.
I was referring to a particular individual, one Frederic Karlton of Miami Beach (see Florida: The Most Cruiser Unfriendly State? (VIDEO) | | PassageMaker ). Most people who have followed the anchor travails in Florida are familiar with Mr. Karlton. I'm not aware of any instance in which cruisers (not ski boats or day boaters) have been the instigators of a noise issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
I would disagree that they should be regulated at the state level. Navigable waterways should be Federally regulated under a well defined set of rules to prevent local cat fights. That way if I'm cruising south down the ICW I don't have a different set of laws in every state.
I'd be thrilled to have it regulated at the Federal level. Federal agencies and courts have deferred to states unless commercial or interstate commerce is affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
I'm suggesting a compromise at 30 days. maybe that could be rephrased to limit anchoring to 30 days if you are outside a designated anchorage.
Why? To my mind if a boater can demonstrate that his or her boat is suitable for navigation and all sewage and other regulations are met why set a number? That won't help with the real derelict boat problem and just drives more tourists away from Florida.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
I can't speak to who's driving the laws or to their motivation.
I've been working this issue for some time. I ask you to take at face value my description of the motivations of the money behind SB 1548.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
post #17 of 471 Old 03-19-2015 Thread Starter
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I'll get one up here today.
Here you go:

Subject: Oppose Ban on Anchoring

Dear

The Florida state Senate is considering SB 1548 which contains a provision that is attacks the rights and freedoms of boaters. The Florida House of Representatives may take up a similar bill soon.

The bill, titled "An Act Related to Vessel Safety", attempts to remedy a number of true safety issues, attributed usually to derelict and unattended vessels: fuel and oil leaks, dumping of waste, sinking, and unmaintained ground tackle or moorings.

Under this same label of vessel "safety" there is an orphan provision promoted by some special interests, specifically a small group of waterfront landowners, who want to eliminate boat anchoring across huge swaths of Florida based solely upon proximity to spots where another person chose to build an upland "dwelling unit". The politics driving this provision seem to be some anecdotal disputes between high-profile homeowners and boaters in specific locations, mostly in the urban lower east coast. Such fights should be resolved through existing enforceable remedies related to harassment or nuisance on a case-by-case basis, not through an over-reaching statewide ban.

While stripping the rights of boaters throughout coastal Florida from the panhandle, through the Keys, and all the way to Jacksonville, the supporters have not performed an assessment of how many anchoring areas would be eliminated and how many of the 1,000,000 boats visiting Florida each year would be shut out. Also, these supporters have not performed an assessment of the adverse economic impact, lost revenue, lost jobs and lost taxes that would result when these boating customers no longer frequent the thousands of Florida's small businesses that rely on this activity.

The portion of SB 1548 creating an anchoring setback to rope off a view for a few politically-active landowners is an over-reaction to a problem that has better, more fair, solutions. This provision would establish one class of people located shore-side and define them as "winners" while others who choose to be on Florida's public waters as a class that
"loses". This setback is not safety related. It is not fair to boaters. It is unfair to all Floridians who pay taxes and collectively own the submerged land beneath these public waters. It is unfair to coastal small businesses. And it is not Florida.

As a boater who values the maritime rights existing on the public waters of Florida, I respectfully ask that you vote against this bill or vote to remove this orphan provision.

Respectfully yours,

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to SVAuspicious For This Useful Post:
Argyle38 (03-20-2015)
post #18 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
Member
 
JimMcGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marathon, Florida
Posts: 2,399
Thanks: 101
Thanked 85 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: Florida is at it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
... we can engage civilly.
Dave, the heck with that we should argue over beers like gentleman !

I'm coming to this party a bit late. I checked out the video you linked and yes, it looks like the guy in the McMansion is a bit of a nut job. You could anchor the Queen Mary in there!

I'm looking at it from the perspective of having a place on a little canal in the Keys (I sail a 30 ft Catalina, I'm not buying a Miami mansion).

So my perspective is a little different...

Currently Boatless

The sail, the play of its pulse so like our own lives: so thin and yet so full of life, so noiseless when it labors hardest, so noisy and impatient when least effective." - Henry David Thoreau
JimMcGee is online now  
post #19 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Wheaton il
Posts: 48
Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Florida is at it again

I just retired and hope to get as far as Florida by boat. If the state makes it a hassle to visit I will just sail until I feel welcome.
Johnniegee is offline  
post #20 of 471 Old 03-19-2015
You really are funny!!
 
chrisncate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,781
Thanks: 19
Thanked 37 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Florida is at it again

200' doesn't seem at all unreasonable if you think about it, 200' is not very far. If you can't anchor, move along until you find a place where you're at least 200' from a persons home. I don't see the big deal here.

From a non cruisers perspective, it's kind of hard to view why exactly your recreation/vacation whims should take precedence over homeowners who have invested in the area for the long term and actually live there and pay taxes there. 200' seems pretty reasonable, you're still close, and the homeowner doesn't have a bunch of anchored transient cruisers parked on top of him with a 200' buffer law in place.

Property is valued higher when it's on the water (typically), and there is a reason for that. Seems kind of entitled to think you have an automatic right to anchor wherever you want in an area you have zero investment in just because you want to, regardless of what the locals feel about the matter. Saying things like "they think they own the view", while whining about not being able to (temporarily) own that view yourself seems like double speak.

I'll never understand why cruisers often hold the locals of tropical foreign lands in the utmost regard, and totally respect their culture and customs, but at home often show none of this courtesy to their fellow citizens. I also do believe sincerely that if RV's suddenly started landing less than 200' from your home, blocking your views that you don't own, you'd probably be up in arms and have the problem dealt with in short order.
chrisncate is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New York To Florida, Restock, FLorida to bahamas OceanSailor4 General Discussion (sailing related) 4 07-01-2010 06:51 PM
New York To Florida, Restock, FLorida to bahamas OceanSailor4 General Discussion (sailing related) 1 07-01-2010 06:24 PM
Voted #1 Florida Press 2004 FIRST PLACE Best Web Site Florida Keys Keynoter (Keynoter.com) NewsReader News Feeds 0 01-13-2007 02:15 AM
Voted #1 Florida Press 2004 and 2005 Best Web Site Florida Keys Keynoter (Keynoter.com) NewsReader News Feeds 0 11-04-2006 02:16 AM
Voted #1 Florida Press 2004 FIRST PLACE Best Web Site Florida Keys Keynoter (Keynoter.com) NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-05-2006 08:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome