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post #301 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
I understand completely from a cruisers perspective why they'd want to fight rules like this. What I don't understand is why the same cruisers would undoubtedly be appalled and fight it with all means available if random people traveling in RV's decided to frequently overnight on the street right in front of the cruisers land home.

What's the difference exactly? Why are RV's supposed to go to designated RVing areas (and certainly not in front your homes throughout the RV season), while cruisers on boats should be able to park wherever they please?

Can anyone explain the difference to me between people randomly parking RV's in front of your home on your street, and cruisers randomly anchoring in front of peoples homes? Isn't it basically the same thing, one being expected as a right, the other obviously being unacceptable as they have designated areas and no one wants a bunch of random RV's in front of their homes all summer/winter?
The difference is simple. Florida is primarily a watersport state. Many homes with access to the Intracoastal and/or the many, many waterways, canals, etc. often have docks (one of the things that helps sell homes btw), and the sight of uncountable power and sailboats is commonplace, acceptable and for most - desirable. And no one across the canal complains that their same or opposite side neighbor has a sailboat docked 24/7.

It's what Florida is all about. Keep in mind that the waterways are both legally and for all practical purposes distinct from neighborhood streets. This poster also posed the made up problem of "random RV's parked for extended periods in residential neighborhoods, which is simply a strawman unworthy of dissent.
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post #302 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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The difference is simple. Florida is primarily a watersport state. Many homes with access to the Intracoastal and/or the many, many waterways, canals, etc. often have docks (one of the things that helps sell homes btw), and the sight of uncountable power and sailboats is commonplace, acceptable and for most - desirable. And no one across the canal complains that their same or opposite side neighbor has a sailboat docked 24/7.

It's what Florida is all about. Keep in mind that the waterways are both legally and for all practical purposes distinct from neighborhood streets. This poster also posed the made up problem of "random RV's parked for extended periods in residential neighborhoods, which is simply a strawman unworthy of dissent.
Well, your neighbors next door or across the canal have a vested interest in the neighborhood, whereas transients don't. Furthermore, consideration of the proximity of transients and the density of transients in an anchorage are analogous to land side considerations of setbacks and neighborhood lot area requirements.

I don't understand the argument that the analogy is "unworthy of dissent"--whatever that means--unless one is not prepared to provide a logical counterposition. Whereever one stands of anchoring rights, I believe the analogy is spot on. But, haven't we been here before?
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post #303 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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And no one across the canal complains that their same or opposite side neighbor has a sailboat docked 24/7.

It's what Florida is all about. Keep in mind that the waterways are both legally and for all practical purposes distinct from neighborhood streets
There are lots of streets on which it's perfectly legal to park an RV overnight. Maybe just not the ones some waterfront owners have spent much time on.
I've seen the RV/boat analogy before. But I've yet to see a valid analogy between using the infrastructure of roads, side-street, highways, on- and off-street parking places, etc that's available to motor vehicles, and using our federally-controlled open water on which boats keep their occupants safe by staying afloat and intact.
And can you tell me why an anchorage and a parking lot aren't analogous? Can people who live across from a business's lot say, "No parking across the street from my house"? You can buy property on a shoreline where anchoring isn't feasible if you're that troubled by anchoring.
I'd also like to know the difference between a boat operator's right to move through water and his/her right to anchor in it. IOW, if stationary boats trouble you, what will happen when you decide that moving boats do also? What about stopping but not anchoring, like lobster boats here in Maine do all the time? How long is it OK to stop for?
You can point to instances of anchored boats causing problems with noise, pollution, dereliction, etc. and I think anyone would be sympathetic to aggressive ordinances tailored to those problems. But it's unreasonable, and pretty arrogant, to say, "I own the shoreline, it's expensive to own because of my water view, therefore I get to control the water view."

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post #304 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Well, your neighbors next door or across the canal have a vested interest in the neighborhood, whereas transients don't.
Define "the neighborhood".
My property is adjacent to land that is controlled by the government (a small state park). The state may or may not have considered the impact that permitted use of the park has on me. But I don't have the right to tell the state who can use the park and for what purpose. The park is in my "neighborhood", it affects my property use in ways both positive and negative, but I have no more right to dictate it's use than anyone else who lives in my state, and therefore owns a stake in the park.
Proximity to your home doesn't give you more rights over publicly-owned/controlled space than the general public has. If by 'neighborhood' you mean proximity, you take the good with the bad. Or move.
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post #305 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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I'd also like to know the difference between a boat operator's right to move through water and his/her right to anchor in it. IOW, if stationary boats trouble you, what will happen when you decide that moving boats do also?
You can point to instances of anchored boats causing problems with noise, pollution, dereliction, etc. and I think anyone would be sympathetic to aggressive ordinances tailored to those problems. But it's unreasonable, and pretty arrogant, to say, "I own the shoreline, it's expensive to own because of my water view, therefore I get to control the water view."
Let's get the last point out of the way. It is arrogant for a shoreline owner to expect to control the water view. That said, it is also arrogant for the transient cruiser to expect to control that same water space. That's what public agencies, like harbor commissions, are for: to sort out conflicts and come up with solutions in the public interest. Yes, I know that there are some public agencies that don't get it right, but so, too, are boaters who expect no limits.

So back to the first part of the quote. There are neighborhoods where parking on public streets is reserved for residents as a result of abuse by the public. One example is Newport, RI, where certain neighborhoods have been repeatedly overrun by tourists and boaters arriving by land in the downtown harbor district. The city subsequently established "Resident parking only" areas so the locals could find a place to park within walking distance from their homes. We have a situation in New London, CT, where employees from a commercial operation were saturating the nearlby neighborhood parking. The city is now instituting the "residential parking only" restriction. These areas are typically enforced with the help of stickers for residents who have registered with the city.

Now, I'm not saying that boaters are generally abusing the waterfront, but there are enough troublemakers to generate resentment of uncontrolled transients. In our harbor alone, there have been at least 3 problemmatic boats that required town legal and police action to resolve. Do you think that the waterfront owners' property taxes might have paid for that enforcement?

If you haven't dealt with the issue of irresponsible boaters from the perspective of public agencies, you have no idea of the public burden resulting from attempts at enforcement. Aggressive regulations don't enforce themselves. If you need an example, check out the saga leading up the the destruction of a sailboat that was run aground in Niantic, CT, this year.
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Re: Florida is at it again

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That said, it is also arrogant for the transient cruiser to expect to control that same water space.
Transient cruisers don't expect to control the water space. They do expect to be free to use it. Someone anchors too close and won't move, we can't call the cops or sue them. So that point's not out of the way at all.
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The city subsequently established "Resident parking only" areas so the locals could find a place to park within walking distance from their homes. We have a situation in New London, CT, where employees from a commercial operation were saturating the nearlby neighborhood parking. The city is now instituting the "residential parking only" restriction.
So you want to eliminate anchoring in an anchorage because you want to anchor there? I don't think so. You're making an apples-to-oranges comparison.
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3 problemmatic boats that required town legal and police action to resolve. Do you think that the waterfront owners' property taxes might have paid for that enforcement?
Three problematic boats? Out of how many? Four? Six? A thousand? And you want to abolish anchoring altogether? And waterfront property owners' taxes aren't the only ones paying for it. Your neighbors a couple blocks back from shore, who may want a place to anchor, are also paying taxes. Federal tax money goes towards enforcing local ordinances, too. We all pay those.
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Aggressive regulations don't enforce themselves.
Of course they don't. Neither do speed limits (in our neighborhoods) or drunk-driving laws. But somehow municipalities manage without banning all use of the roads. And do you think enforcing a law restricting everyone is going to be cheaper than enforcing one that's targeted at a few?
Waterfront owners derive great advantages from their locations. They have some occasional disadvantages. The rest of us don't owe them a fix at our common expense.

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post #307 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

RV's have laws and cannot be parked on public streets and that is because they are not subject to currents, drift, tide and so on. Boats can't be pulled over, they have limited choices. This does not address the difficulty w/ shipping lanes and shoals. People who compare RVs to boats at sea should not be allowed to voice an opinion because the comparison is just that lame.
At 62 I've seen a lot. People are like junkyard dogs. The lay idle, they are more likely to complain about anything....

The country keeps importing people so "rich developers" can squeeze tax payers to build them housing. Many of there developers and others who benefit from it, made a fortune overpopulating our country. Yet hate it when subject to the same grief we are.
Selfish people bent on giving us the crime and expense of dealing with their capitalization on our neighborhoods but then whining when that population bleeds over into their gated communities.
I don't know where it stops. Most can live in these places without locking their doors and I have enjoyed that myself but where the line is, is we need to slow the piling in of other countries or see this even more. It's not that I lack a heart. It's that my heart is in my home first.
You can see it in our rich leaders who are wealthy but figure out ways to give away our homes through eminent domain.
The boat escapes many of these problems and it infuriates them that such freedom exist. I can't really speak to all situations. Some people who are rich deserve a rest, I am all for it.
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post #308 of 471 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

Though I understand both sides I don't think 200 ft is that bad of a compromise... I would not want to be moored to close to someone's back yard and I'm sure they would not like to have a backyard right on top of a mooring field. I live in Florida, and have a dock on the intracoastal. The laws here though often litigated seem to always kind of meet in the middle. At least from my experience..


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post #309 of 471 Old 12-13-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Transient cruisers don't expect to control the water space. They do expect to be free to use it. Someone anchors too close and won't move, we can't call the cops or sue them. So that point's not out of the way at all.

So you want to eliminate anchoring in an anchorage because you want to anchor there? I don't think so. You're making an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Three problematic boats? Out of how many? Four? Six? A thousand? And you want to abolish anchoring altogether? And waterfront property owners' taxes aren't the only ones paying for it. Your neighbors a couple blocks back from shore, who may want a place to anchor, are also paying taxes. Federal tax money goes towards enforcing local ordinances, too. We all pay those.

Of course they don't. Neither do speed limits (in our neighborhoods) or drunk-driving laws. But somehow municipalities manage without banning all use of the roads. And do you think enforcing a law restricting everyone is going to be cheaper than enforcing one that's targeted at a few?
Waterfront owners derive great advantages from their locations. They have some occasional disadvantages. The rest of us don't owe them a fix at our common expense.
You are totally missing the points in my post. I didn't advocate "eliminating anchoring", nor did I advocate laws that "target" anyone. Neither did I advocate "fixing" problems for waterfront owners. Rather, I would insist that highly taxed waterfront owners have paid a lot more than most for the privilege of advocating in their own interest.

That said, waterfront owners do not control public water space, but they can have legitimate concerns that should be considered by the public agencies that manage water space. Sometimes these concerns involve egregious behavior by boaters. Analogies to land side management of public space may not be perfect, but public agencies have ample precedent to restrict public use of waterways, just as they do on land, by balancing competing interests. In some cases, it is appropriate to consider the interests of adjacent property owners in setting public policy, just as in the case of residential parking restrictions.
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post #310 of 471 Old 12-13-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Originally Posted by Curious Sailor View Post
Though I understand both sides I don't think 200 ft is that bad of a compromise...
A 200 ft setback will effectively prohibit anchoring in Ft Lauderdale and Miami.

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