Florida is at it again - Page 6 - SailNet Community
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post #51 of 471 Old 03-20-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Originally Posted by RobGallagher View Post
Just so happens that in this particular disagreement you are wrong and I am correct
Lol, spoken like a true Sailnetter.

Honestly I am not advocating for the evil rich people or even a setback. I just expressed that 200' doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Frankly speaking I don't actually care one way or the other, but I will enjoy watching it play out.
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post #52 of 471 Old 03-20-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
Lol, spoken like a true Sailnetter.

Honestly I am not advocating for the evil rich people or even a setback. I just expressed that 200' doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Frankly speaking I don't actually care one way or the other, but I will enjoy watching it play out.
It's unreasonable because they do not own it. It is public property and, lest you are unaware, most local municipalities already impose restrictions on things like:
How long one can anchor.
Enforcing mandatory registration of the vessel.
Enforcing payment of other mandatory fees and/or taxes.
Mandatory safety equipment.
The right of law enforcement to inspect at any time.
The right of law enforcement to board at any time.

I have an idea, let them try to enact legislation that says they have to maintain and pay taxes on that extra land under the water that they want to control. I maintain that the tune will change rather quickly.

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post #53 of 471 Old 03-20-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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It's unreasonable because they do not own it. It is public property...

....I have an idea, let them try to enact legislation that says they have to maintain and pay taxes on that extra land under the water that they want to control. I maintain that the tune will change rather quickly.
I would submit that they pay a lot more taxes that go towards their own backyard than the average cruisers passing through does.

One thing that just occurred to me regarding the right to navigation argument: Is there anything in that that states navigation includes stopping and overnighting? The word Navigation seems to imply navigating, ie; the passage of ships as defined. Just a thought.. anyone know?
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post #54 of 471 Old 03-20-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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I would submit that they pay a lot more taxes that go towards their own backyard than the average cruisers passing through does.

One thing that just occurred to me regarding the right to navigation argument: Is there anything in that that states navigation includes stopping and overnighting? The word Navigation seems to imply navigating, ie; the passage of ships as defined. Just a thought.. anyone know?
Anchoring is generally restricted in navigable, known or marked, channels. My argument is that we are not talking about navigable channels or it would all be moot.

The general reason people anchor in these areas is that they are out of Navigable channels.

We have open oceans, navigable channels, private marinas/mooring, etc.

Then we have the places we are discussing; for recreation, anchoring, shell fishing, light fishing, small boat sailing, tubing, water skiing, general relaxation on the water etc, etc.

Once the stage is set to regulate what you want to see, then you get to move on to other things. After all, it's the landowners view and they should be able to choose what they look out at. Maybe they don't like 12 year old kids on floating by on a tube. Maybe they don't like skiffs fishing for snapper blues. Maybe they just don't like you and your long haired hippy friends drinking beer from a can and playing that rock and roll. After all, you are in their view.

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post #55 of 471 Old 03-21-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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I would submit that they pay a lot more taxes that go towards their own backyard than the average cruisers passing through does.
I am not sure why you keep bringing this up. Are you suggesting that those who pay more taxes should have privileges that others don't? Because IMO that's exactly the sort of attitude that is destroying the middle class in this country.

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post #56 of 471 Old 03-21-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

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I am not sure why you keep bringing this up. Are you suggesting that those who pay more taxes should have privileges that others don't? Because IMO that's exactly the sort of attitude that is destroying the middle class in this country.
I do think that those who live and pay taxes locally should have more of a say on local issues, yes. I don't see how that idea is destroying the middle class.
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post #57 of 471 Old 03-21-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

The local municipality may or may not have the legal right to restrict usage of their waterfront. But, what's the argument, if this was done on a federal level? They do, in fact, own the waterfront.

While the FL legislation may be stoked by money, I believe, most landowners would sympathize on a federal level and they greatly outnumber cruisers. Democracy sucks when you're in the minority.

The lobbying game is played by asking for more than you are willing to accept. No other way. However, I think a reasonable compromise is logical here. If not 200ft, then what? 100? 75?

Having a requirement that a boat actually be navigable in navigable waters make sense, with some grace for repair.

I also see a reasonable point to only allow a certain number of days in one location, at least in a location that is so tight that these setbacks are an issue at all. By definition, one would be blocking another user, in those spots, if you stayed perpetually.


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post #58 of 471 Old 03-21-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Florida is at it again

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Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
Justice is exposing these bad laws before the courts and getting them overturned. Then, the local authorities can attempt to craft new laws that don't run afoul of our rights, and higher laws.
All true, and all expensive.

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Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
Honestly I am not advocating for the evil rich people or even a setback. I just expressed that 200' doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Frankly speaking I don't actually care one way or the other, but I will enjoy watching it play out.
It seems from this statement and some inconsistencies in your previous posts that you are just here to stir the pot, which is unfortunate. As you say you don't care about the issue. You seem to be enjoying winding people up. That's an odd hobby.

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One thing that just occurred to me regarding the right to navigation argument: Is there anything in that that states navigation includes stopping and overnighting? The word Navigation seems to imply navigating, ie; the passage of ships as defined. Just a thought.. anyone know?
Yes. Navigation includes anchoring. My understanding is that anchoring rights within the US are protected as part of interstate commerce. This is a broader definition than the international one under UNCLOS.

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The lobbying game is played by asking for more than you are willing to accept. No other way. However, I think a reasonable compromise is logical here. If not 200ft, then what? 100? 75?
Part of the discussion will include what upland property setbacks apply to at all. If property rights end at the high water mark (as they do in Florida, different than MHHW in many jurisdictions since there is so much non-tidal water) why should any setback apply at all? I'm all for access to private, commercial, and public docks and boat ramps at some reasonable level (which again requires judgment and negotiation).
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post #59 of 471 Old 03-21-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

I would like a set back for anyone anchoring near my boat.

We're talking about distances I worry people will drag into me. Being that close to shore must often be impractical, due to depth. Unless in a dredged channel. Whoever dredged it, probably feels like they should have some say over who now has access to it.


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post #60 of 471 Old 03-21-2015
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Re: Florida is at it again

I understand your viewpoint Chris so let me try to explain my situation so you can fully understand mine. Take into consideration how many full-time cruisers there are out there sailing from one location to the next; probably doesn't break 6 digits worldwide. With that in mind, only a couple will be in any one location at a time which means the majority of people using these anchorages are locals. Take me for example; I pay taxes in Hillsborough county, I sail in Hillsborough county. I'm a law-abiding, tax-paying, heritage citizen of the USA (seeing as how I didn't colonize the continent 200+ years ago) and my money supports the ecosystem I sail in. Did taxpayer dollars build the waterways I traverse and the anchorages that shelter me? No. They existed as far back as the Eocene epoch 56 million years ago. With that said, my taxes and the other citizen's taxes equally pay for the management of our SHARED and PUBLIC resource so why am I to be treated like a second class citizen just because I don't pay property taxes on a property I don't own? It's not like property is mandatory, especially waterfront which is purely a luxury that comes at a premium price. My money supports the waterways just as much as any homeowner, besides which their property taxes end at the high tide line so what gives? It's not like I'm infringing upon their rights on the land they pay for and live on. This legislation on the other hand does so to me despite the taxes I equally pay.

I'm not being hostile towards you Chris, I understand you're not the one proposing the legislation but in lieu of the homeowners who do, we here at SN only have you to converse with on this subject. What we're talking about here is not about noise, pollution, trespassing, or any other sort of inconvenience, it's about a blanket law that punishes every boater for no apparent reason. When I asked what kind of justification you saw in the 200' proposal the only answer I got was about property taxes which I hope you view in a different light after my post here. The only other motivation I see is that waterfront properties just want an unobstructed view of the water which is hardly justified in my opinion.

These anchorages aren't free vacation spots, they're an integral part of boating life providing shelter from the weather. A house has the luxury of being in a single stable place, wind and water currents control our lives and these anchorages are the only respite we have from the elements.
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