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post #41 of 143 Old 07-22-2015
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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Originally Posted by Adele-H View Post
Getting back on the boat could be as simple as having big knots or loops in your tether. (This requires that you can lift your body weight hand over hand.) Providing that the jackline is not overhanging the gunwales when stretched.
My jack lines run inside the shrouds on both sides of the boat. From bow to stern, me, always clipped in to windward.
If one was to fall over board to windward, tethered from anywhere, they would stop "sliding" aft at the first stanchion encountered, the ladder on the stern would feel as far as the nearest landmass. For me if the fall is on the bow to leeward, I would stop at the shrouds, but then the toerail would be closer to the water...
as a climber, it is possible to ascend a rope using "soft" ascenders, basically just loops of smaller diameter rope or sling.
Klemheist - How to tie a Klemheist Knot
it does take practice, but it is possible. best way to learn is to find a rockgym near you and ask for this technique to be shown to you. It is used in self rescue at the cliffs, some of that training can be applied to boating.
A couple of these rigged up on your tether might just be the answer to getting back aboard, provided you didn't knock yourself out on the way in.
This might work if you are in really good shape, the boat is going real slow and the weather is calm. Dragging alongside the boat in rough seas, maybe not so much. Better to have long rope ladders that can be deployed as well as a hoist for someone who is unconscious.
Prussic knots are great for a lot of things and easy to employ. We keep several loops at the pedestal ready for use. Great for removing stress from a bound up winch or a line that needs to be moved. It is also a good safety when going up the mast, put it on a unused, secured halyard and slide it up and down with you.
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post #42 of 143 Old 07-22-2015
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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Originally Posted by Adele-H View Post
Getting back on the boat could be as simple as having big knots or loops in your tether. (This requires that you can lift your body weight hand over hand.)
I dunno, sounds needlessly complex, to me... :-)

More things to get caught, snagged, or tangled up in... It would certainly defeat the simplicity and utility of the fixed tethers I've come to favor, that can be easily and quickly shortened up when I get to where I want to be, trying to do that with a tether already having a series of loops and knots would be a mess, a major violation of my KISS principle when it comes to stuff like this... Not saying it might not work for you, on your boat, just that such an arrangement would definitely present a greater danger to a klutz like me...

;-)

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We will disappoint some here, we hang our fenders from the (Dyneema) rail, if it can't take that, I need to replace them. Making sure your attachment points can take the load is critical.
Well, if you're routinely hanging fenders from lifelines, it's not integrity of the lifelines themselves you need to be concerned about... The sort of 'working' that fenders and other weights on lifelines can induce is not doing your stanchion bases, the deck beneath them, and the bedding between them any favors...

There's one advantage to sailing a Brent Boat, for sure...

;-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 07-22-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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post #43 of 143 Old 07-22-2015
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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One only needs to consider the people who were swept away when the 6,000 lb. WL webbing on their tether failed.

a. I doubt the tethers tested to 1/2 of 6000 pounds (in each case there were defects in the stitching or other construction, and in at least one case they tested the splice on the other end and it failed far below spec.).

b. That would be the breaking strength, not the WL.

c. They didn't break because they were weak or because the fall was that extreme. They broke because there was no shock absorption (the reports state this). All of these failures were before ISO changed the spec to include a drop test. It is easy to break a polyester tether in a drop.

d. None of the failures were on jacklines. They were from fixed points with no stretch.

e. The webbing did not fail, the stitching did, unless I am mistaken.

Climbers have broken 5000-pound Dyneema tethers with falls as short as 2 feet. The failures are due to a basic misunderstanding of design, not actual severity. ISO finally saw this and changed the rule.

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post #44 of 143 Old 07-23-2015
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

I apreciate all the discussion. I have recently realized that even with my inland sailing in Puget Sound, I am taking unnecessary risks when I single hand. I have decided that I need to setup, and use regularly, a tether and jackline system. It is helpful to read all your thought.

Like so many discussions here, whether it be about boat type, anchors, PDFs, or bottom paint, ANY boat, anchor, PFD, or bottom paint is better than none. I decided that I will first start with the system that I can create right away, and then worry about improving it over time rather than not doing anything until I figure out the "perfect" system.

I have a Catalina 400 and like many the biggest problem is the bow when setting a spinnaker solo. Dynema sounds like a good option.
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post #45 of 143 Old 07-23-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
s

WRONG... Everyone knows the most common reason kroozers venture out on deck is to re-secure items like jerry cans, kayaks and Porta-Botes lashed to the lifelines, and so on... ;-)

Modern furling systems of top quality - when properly installed - can be remarkably trouble free, and pretty close to bulletproof...

Again, for me the real tragedy of Sailing Jackson's loss has nothing to do with jackline or tethers.. Rather, it is that there should have been no reason whatsoever for him to have had to deal with an 'issue' with a headsail furler on a brand new boat costing roughly $300K... My Profurl is going on 18 years old now - with one rebuild prior to swapping out the drum with a replacement last winter - and I have never once had it "jam"...



Seriously, you really need to do something about that... Don't you at least have a horizontal grab rail connecting the forward and aft bars of the dodger on each side? That's a very simple fix, certainly better than nothing...
I know it. I wind up crawling along the really narrow deck right there. The dodger frame has no horizontal bar going fwd/aft. One way or another, it's on the list to fix before next fall. The thing with furlers seems to be that if someone tries to haul the sail in when there's still too much wind in the sail really yarning back on the line it's like to bury the coil and jam. Some practice is needed in rolling it up to keep tension on it so the coils are not loose. I find I need to balance the furler line and the sheet which takes two hands and a good feel for how its coiling up, often needing to back off and recoil if I sense a loose coil. Would be nice if they had a spool like a bait casting reel that evenly coiled the line.
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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Originally Posted by dhays View Post
I apreciate all the discussion. I have recently realized that even with my inland sailing in Puget Sound, I am taking unnecessary risks when I single hand. I have decided that I need to setup, and use regularly, a tether and jackline system. It is helpful to read all your thought.

Like so many discussions here, whether it be about boat type, anchors, PDFs, or bottom paint, ANY boat, anchor, PFD, or bottom paint is better than none. I decided that I will first start with the system that I can create right away, and then worry about improving it over time rather than not doing anything until I figure out the "perfect" system.

I have a Catalina 400 and like many the biggest problem is the bow when setting a spinnaker solo. Dynema sounds like a good option.
Kudos to you for setting a spinnaker alone! I have yet to get brave enough to try that. I did exactly as you suggest, just running my jacklines bow to stern to get it done when first rigging the boat. Now I need to do it again. Maybe think it out and do it once after reading all the good suggestions here.

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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

"Well, if you're routinely hanging fenders from lifelines, it's not integrity of the lifelines themselves you need to be concerned about... The sort of 'working' that fenders and other weights on lifelines can induce is not doing your stanchion bases, the deck beneath them, and the bedding between them any favors... "

We do spend very little time with fenders out. The fenders hanging on the lines don't seem to move, or "work our stanchions at all. The deck at the mounts is solid. I think if we were at a marina for a while we might do something different.

@pdqaltair - "Climbers have broken 5000-pound Dyneema tethers with falls as short as 2 feet. The failures are due to a basic misunderstanding of design, not actual severity. ISO finally saw this and changed the rule." Do you have a reference for this? I am interested in reading it.
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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The thing with furlers seems to be that if someone tries to haul the sail in when there's still too much wind in the sail really yarning back on the line it's like to bury the coil and jam.
We try to make the out feed as tight as possible, using the sheet to firmly pull the sail if wind is lighter. Getting tight, even wraps on the drum as we deploy either headsail. Like you said its like line on a reel. You won't get the bind if the coils underneath are tight.
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

I've often wondered why designers of roller furling systems didn't incorporate the same system for maintaining the line on the drum that trailer boat winch designers used? It's nothing more than a piece of stainless, spring steel that minds the line/cable as it is played out and reeled in. Nothing complex, just a neat, pretty much fail-proof design. Might have to make one for my system. Hmmmm!

Gary
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post #50 of 143 Old 07-23-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Rethinking Jacklines

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I've often wondered why designers of roller furling systems didn't incorporate the same system for maintaining the line on the drum that trailer boat winch designers used? It's nothing more than a piece of stainless, spring steel that minds the line/cable as it is played out and reeled in. Nothing complex, just a neat, pretty much fail-proof design. Might have to make one for my system. Hmmmm!

Gary
I think you're right. The basic design of furler systems seems to be questionable. Maybe the companies that make them and charge ridiculous prices should get in touch with fishing reel engineers and ask how to make line spool evenly. Even the cheapest fishing reels have line control mechanisms on some kinds of reels. Some sort of mechanism to move the line up and down on the spool is needed. Depending on the line to magically level on its own is a flawed idea. It invites a loop to slip down because the loops pile up too high before falling off, causing a loose spot which in turn causes a jam.

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