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post #21 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

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Originally Posted by Billy654 View Post
Went to register my boat in Louisiana. Was told I would have to first have it undocumented with the Coast Guard. Sounds crazy to me. Are other states like this> Why?
You can register a documented boat. Some states require you to do so.

What you may be referring to is titling your boat. You cannot have a boat that is both documented with USCG and titled in a state. You need to cancel your documentation before you title it in a state. If you manage to add one without canceling the other, you may never be able to sell the boat, because lenders will not be willing to lend money to a buyer. A lender wants to secure the boat with a lien, and they can lien against the title or documentation, but not both. So if you have both and that fact comes up on a title/doc search, lenders will run away fast. Otherwise the boat is not secured, because you would have a title or documentation that has no lien on it, even though the bank owns the boat.

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post #22 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
No, you really don't. That website seems to be the one that everyone cites, but it is full of old information, wrong information, and just a bunch of speculation. What you need to read instead are websites maintained by the state of Florida and/or by the individual counties of Florida.

What you will find is what hellosailor and I have been trying to get across to everyone. There is no such thing as a "sojourner's permit" that the state of Florida recognizes. You will not find the word "sojourner" ANYWHERE in Florida statutes.

Several counties use the word "sojourner" to refer to those who want to bring their boats to Florida, stay more than 90 days, but do not intend to make Florida their permanent home. If that is your situation, then you get a "temporary registration" (that's what the state statutes call it), without the need to title your boat in Florida.

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Re: State Registration (Again...)

Someone suggested going to the horses mouth. It seems like a really good idea because there is A LOT of conflicting information on the internets.

Florida Statute 328.58 says there is reciprocity of nonresident or alien vessels, if the vessel is registered by:

(1) Another state pursuant to a federally approved numbering system of another state;
(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; or
(3) The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state,

The issue is #2. Does "In a state" mean you the state in which you are a resident? The state of your domicile? Or what? The point is illustrated by the following quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Actually that NY Sheriff was wrong. There's an obscure line in the laws that NYS does not require registration until or unless a boat is in state waters for 90+ days. Stay in NY waters for 89 days, go overnight to Hoboken, the clock restarts. Stay for 89 days, haul the boat and leave it ashore for a day, the clock restarts.
It also appears the name "Sojourners Permit" was simply made up to make the explanation of multi-state registering easier to understand, as I find no reference to that name in the law, as hellosailer confirms.

It seems you need to register (a modest fee, IMHO) if you are (or plan to be) in the state longer than 90 days.

Another state's registration may or may not be needed / helpful depending on who you ask, the time of day, and the county you choose.
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post #24 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

When you document a vessel you are obligated to name a hailing port and it is listed in the documentation. If that is within a state that requires registration and sales tax - they gotcha.

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post #25 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

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Originally Posted by optimator View Post
...It seems you need to register (a modest fee, IMHO)...
I agree that registering is a very modest fee for almost all states. So I'll bring up the "elephant in the room," which is the fact that a disturbingly large number of boaters (mostly power, but also many sail) use USCG documentation as a way to evade paying sales, use, or excise taxes on their boats. Living about 10 miles from the Delaware border, I see a shockingly large number of boats with Delaware hailing ports, and also lots of boats that are too small to document that are registered in Delaware. A number of owners have openly bragged to me that they never take their boats into Delaware, and use the Delaware scam to avoid paying sales/use/excise taxes at all.

So for those boaters, registration would be very costly because of the taxes that go along with with it.

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post #26 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I agree that registering is a very modest fee for almost all states. So I'll bring up the "elephant in the room," which is the fact that a disturbingly large number of boaters (mostly power, but also many sail) use USCG documentation as a way to evade paying sales, use, or excise taxes on their boats. Living about 10 miles from the Delaware border, I see a shockingly large number of boats with Delaware hailing ports, and also lots of boats that are too small to document that are registered in Delaware. A number of owners have openly bragged to me that they never take their boats into Delaware, and use the Delaware scam to avoid paying sales/use/excise taxes at all.

So for those boaters, registration would be very costly because of the taxes that go along with with it.
RANT WARNING
All those little 'modest fees and taxes' do tend to add up in federal/state/county/local venues to an 'unbelievable' total.
In Pennsylvania, as with similarly grossly over-taxed states, one must understand that when one's total and combined taxes, plus pass-along taxes (from purchases, etc.), approaches 2/3rd's of one's income, people tend to resort to the black/underground market and outright/overt illegality.
Although not the worst in total tax coercion, Pennsylvania's (plus federal/county/local) massive combined and hidden pass-along taxes (from goods and services purchased) ... is now approaching/impending towards 60-65% of an average family's income. Many many of the Pennsylvanians who live near any other state border and to save what income that is not already diverted to TAXES, will do their shopping for large (but carryable) ticket items; buy their automotive fuels, liquor, tobacco, etc. etc. in the bordering states that have significant tax advantages to do so. To enjoy "boating" is no different. Pennsylvania will probably soon become similar to already severely de-populated ('upstate') New York and other ravenous TAX-hungry (utterly decaying 'rust-belt', etc.) states.
This whole thread exemplifies how the various states that are approaching bankruptcy/insolvency due to malfeasance, misfeasance, graft, corruption, revenue fund transfer to special interests, etc. etc. - tend to 'squeeze' any and all possible tax revenue out of its citizens (aka: indentured tax serfs), as all a state has to do is cheaply pass a law, require yet one more modest fee 'registration', etc. etc. etc.
When the average person pays more of income for taxes including 'hidden and pass-along taxes' than one keeps for themselves, who can morally blame those who take advantages of the grey-market and other illegality to keep themselves satisfied and 'afloat'.

Also dont forget that currently ~40% of all workforce aged citizens in this country are NOT in the 'workforce', and still must pay their 'fair share'.

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post #27 of 35 Old 08-27-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

Actually it is pretty much normal for ANY state to require ANY motor vehicle, wet or dry, wheeled or keeled, to be registered in that state if it is there for more than 90 days. There are all kinds of variations, including a couple of states where the license plate is "attached" to a car and sold and transferred with the ownership, and even required if the car is on blocks in your barn.

Florida is unusually generous in that odd way of saying "Yeah, well, you've got to pay us and register it here, but, we'll be nice and let you keep your home registration and title so you don't have to change it twice every year."

Of course, they also charge about $225 for one license plate (and you can only get one) while other states charge $25 for a pair of them. I guess they expect snowbirds and repeat tourists to leave one set of cars in each residence.

TakeFive-
Your bragging neighbors will eventually get a nasty surprise. The Delaware registration nonsense worked in the 1960's, and exploded in the 1970's. Every tax man in every nearby state has learned to walk the docks, look at marina contracts, and when they see a Delaware registration? They smile with glee, clap hands, dance a little victory jig, and send out the demand letters. Fail to answer and show the registration is legitimate, and they nail [sic] the arrest warrant to your mast and you lose the boat to the tax forfeiture process.

That got so common in NJ, NY, and CT that by the 80's, damn few fools were still trying to get away with it. Looks like the good lord has had enough time to breed a new generation of fools. And I doubt they all work for the PA tax authorities.
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post #28 of 35 Old 08-28-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
RANT WARNING
All those little 'modest fees and taxes' do tend to add up in federal/state/county/local venues to an 'unbelievable' total.
In Pennsylvania, as with similarly grossly over-taxed states, one must understand that when one's total and combined taxes, plus pass-along taxes (from purchases, etc.), approaches 2/3rd's of one's income, people tend to resort to the black/underground market and outright/overt illegality.
Although not the worst in total tax coercion, Pennsylvania's (plus federal/county/local) massive combined and hidden pass-along taxes (from goods and services purchased) ... is now approaching/impending towards 60-65% of an average family's income. Many many of the Pennsylvanians who live near any other state border and to save what income that is not already diverted to TAXES, will do their shopping for large (but carryable) ticket items; buy their automotive fuels, liquor, tobacco, etc. etc. in the bordering states that have significant tax advantages to do so. To enjoy "boating" is no different. Pennsylvania will probably soon become similar to already severely de-populated ('upstate') New York and other ravenous TAX-hungry (utterly decaying 'rust-belt', etc.) states.
This whole thread exemplifies how the various states that are approaching bankruptcy/insolvency due to malfeasance, misfeasance, graft, corruption, revenue fund transfer to special interests, etc. etc. - tend to 'squeeze' any and all possible tax revenue out of its citizens (aka: indentured tax serfs), as all a state has to do is cheaply pass a law, require yet one more modest fee 'registration', etc. etc. etc.
When the average person pays more of income for taxes including 'hidden and pass-along taxes' than one keeps for themselves, who can morally blame those who take advantages of the grey-market and other illegality to keep themselves satisfied and 'afloat'.

Also dont forget that currently ~40% of all workforce aged citizens in this country are NOT in the 'workforce', and still must pay their 'fair share'.
Vote.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
USCG Certified Captain, OUPV and 50 Ton Master
ASA Certified 101/103/104/105/106



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post #29 of 35 Old 08-28-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
RANT WARNING
All those little 'modest fees and taxes' do tend to add up in federal/state/county/local venues to an 'unbelievable' total.
In Pennsylvania, as with similarly grossly over-taxed states, one must understand that when one's total and combined taxes, plus pass-along taxes (from purchases, etc.), approaches 2/3rd's of one's income, people tend to resort to the black/underground market and outright/overt illegality.
Although not the worst in total tax coercion, Pennsylvania's (plus federal/county/local) massive combined and hidden pass-along taxes (from goods and services purchased) ... is now approaching/impending towards 60-65% of an average family's income. Many many of the Pennsylvanians who live near any other state border and to save what income that is not already diverted to TAXES, will do their shopping for large (but carryable) ticket items; buy their automotive fuels, liquor, tobacco, etc. etc. in the bordering states that have significant tax advantages to do so. To enjoy "boating" is no different. Pennsylvania will probably soon become similar to already severely de-populated ('upstate') New York and other ravenous TAX-hungry (utterly decaying 'rust-belt', etc.) states.
This whole thread exemplifies how the various states that are approaching bankruptcy/insolvency due to malfeasance, misfeasance, graft, corruption, revenue fund transfer to special interests, etc. etc. - tend to 'squeeze' any and all possible tax revenue out of its citizens (aka: indentured tax serfs), as all a state has to do is cheaply pass a law, require yet one more modest fee 'registration', etc. etc. etc.
When the average person pays more of income for taxes including 'hidden and pass-along taxes' than one keeps for themselves, who can morally blame those who take advantages of the grey-market and other illegality to keep themselves satisfied and 'afloat'.

Also dont forget that currently ~40% of all workforce aged citizens in this country are NOT in the 'workforce', and still must pay their 'fair share'.
Vote.
He does. Luckily he only wins off cycle elections and at a startling low margin otherwise you'll be paying out of pocket for school and the coast guard, too.
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post #30 of 35 Old 08-28-2015
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Re: State Registration (Again...)

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Originally Posted by Delirious View Post
When you document a vessel you are obligated to name a hailing port and it is listed in the documentation. If that is within a state that requires registration and sales tax - they gotcha.
No. That is not correct. They may TRY to getcha, but unless your boat is actually in that state then they have no legal basis for this and you can righteously tell them to get stuffed.

The hailing port that you choose for CG documentation means nothing. It most certainly does not entitle any state to tax you. Only if you are actually IN that state are they entitled to tax and/or register you.

Now, there certainly are some states that will TRY to tax you based on your hailing port--California being the most notorious. But if you are diligent and persistent they will eventually give up. Several regular participants of this board have been through this. It is not fun, and it can take some time, but no state is legally entitled to collect any taxes from you just because of the hailing port that you choose.
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