In praise of production boats! - Page 21 - SailNet Community
 123Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #201 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,390
Thanks: 137
Thanked 190 Times in 181 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Please note I did not post the hunter wife story. Actually have no issues with hunters.

Please note the cost to keep any boat of roughly the same size in Bristol condition allowing for things like exterior wood and complexion of infill (AC, water maker, etc) is about the same.

Think this is getting silly. There is much to praise about production boats. Why not do that?


Unfortunate some use the the term outside the dictionary definition or how it's understood by the industry and N.A.s
guitarguy56 likes this.
outbound is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #202 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Mermaid Hunter
 
SVAuspicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 5,687
Thanks: 0
Thanked 275 Times in 246 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Don- maybe it's like pornography. " you know it when you see it". But I don't think so. I don't think it's expense. X yachts, Passports, HRs and IPs are more money than mine. Morris, oysters and Hinckley are ~ twice as much.
I don't think it's brand. Beneteau has a cadre of excellent N.A.s and craftsmen. As long as you are writing good checks you can have pretty much what you want. As Bob pointed out same with PSC.
I agree. It never occurred to me that my boat was anything but a production boat. Sure I had some changes made but that is no different than ordering an option on a new Ford or Chevrolet. Outbound's boat is--in my mind and apparently in his--a production boat also.

Others may disagree but I do think Bob Perry's carbon cutters currently in build are not production boats.

There are low volume production boats and high volume production boats but as soon as people at the design office and at the builder start dividing costs over a production run, getting sizable discounts on engines and winches and wire, and dividing up fabrication by shop (think skill sets) instead of by boat it is a production boat.

Economies of scale are wonderful things. Things like structural grids are tremendously strong and effective but the work, including computer modeling, can be expensive. Dividing that cost up over 1,000 boats instead of 10 (or 4) makes that less painful, especially when you get a better, stronger product at less manufacturing cost.

Just because some characteristics (like liners) are common to less expensive production boats doesn't mean that only those boats with those characteristics are production boats. After pulling cable through a lot of boats and helping track down leaks that required cutting big holes I don't like liners (mostly - limited application in things like heads with sufficient access can circumvent problems for owners down the stream). My dislike for liners doesn't mean I don't like production boats. I OWN a production boat albeit one with low volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Smack, I don't think there is a rush to join the group. Swan, HR, Grand Soliel don't want to be Hunter. There is no rush by quality builders to be at the bottom.
That depends on what group you are talking about. There are surely high, medium, and low quality production boats. Quality and price-point don't always have deterministic relationship. Sometimes you pay more for easier maintenance or longer service life. Sometimes there are marketing costs, or marketing that hide real costs like outfitting. Accordingly not every Hunter is like every Hunter or every Beneteau like every Beneteau. Too many boats have system issues that are a result of outfitting by third parties of dubious capability. In my opinion this is why IP has been making more and more systems available as factory options instead of third party outfit installations.

Ultimately I think this whole thread has swirled around a vocabulary that the participants don't agree on that don't relate to particularly important things. Of course to do otherwise would require more thought, some footnotes, and perhaps some math (and no, "ratios" aren't math). You might as well sit around a bar arguing over whether Ford or Chevrolet trucks are better while some guy with a Dodge truck siphons gas from your tanks.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beware "cut and paste" sailors


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SVAuspicious is offline  
post #203 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
GeorgeB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,086
Thanks: 3
Thanked 69 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Darn! Missed being “200” by one post! I just don’t understand the vitriol against the “big” production boat builders. Did Frank Butler steal your lunch money back in grade school? After you are done dumping on our choice of boats, what’s next? Our wives? Kids? If you don’t like this tread, how about starting your own, something along the line of “In Praise of High End Boats (not built by Catalina, Beneteau, Jeaneau , etc)".

One thing that really bugs me are those who are “dumping” in this tread but yet too ashamed to put their boat model in their signature line. I’m proud of my piece of Tupperware, but apparently you guys aren’t.
smackdaddy likes this.

George B
2000 Catalina 34 MkII
Alameda, Ca.
GeorgeB is offline  
 
post #204 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
guitarguy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,341
Thanks: 14
Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I agree. It never occurred to me that my boat was anything but a production boat. Sure I had some changes made but that is no different than ordering an option on a new Ford or Chevrolet. Outbound's boat is--in my mind and apparently in his--a production boat also.

Others may disagree but I do think Bob Perry's carbon cutters currently in build are not production boats.

There are low volume production boats and high volume production boats but as soon as people at the design office and at the builder start dividing costs over a production run, getting sizable discounts on engines and winches and wire, and dividing up fabrication by shop (think skill sets) instead of by boat it is a production boat.

Economies of scale are wonderful things. Things like structural grids are tremendously strong and effective but the work, including computer modeling, can be expensive. Dividing that cost up over 1,000 boats instead of 10 (or 4) makes that less painful, especially when you get a better, stronger product at less manufacturing cost.

Just because some characteristics (like liners) are common to less expensive production boats doesn't mean that only those boats with those characteristics are production boats. After pulling cable through a lot of boats and helping track down leaks that required cutting big holes I don't like liners (mostly - limited application in things like heads with sufficient access can circumvent problems for owners down the stream). My dislike for liners doesn't mean I don't like production boats. I OWN a production boat albeit one with low volume.



That depends on what group you are talking about. There are surely high, medium, and low quality production boats. Quality and price-point don't always have deterministic relationship. Sometimes you pay more for easier maintenance or longer service life. Sometimes there are marketing costs, or marketing that hide real costs like outfitting. Accordingly not every Hunter is like every Hunter or every Beneteau like every Beneteau. Too many boats have system issues that are a result of outfitting by third parties of dubious capability. In my opinion this is why IP has been making more and more systems available as factory options instead of third party outfit installations.

Ultimately I think this whole thread has swirled around a vocabulary that the participants don't agree on that don't relate to particularly important things. Of course to do otherwise would require more thought, some footnotes, and perhaps some math (and no, "ratios" aren't math). You might as well sit around a bar arguing over whether Ford or Chevrolet trucks are better while some guy with a Dodge truck siphons gas from your tanks.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
Dave... Your post wins the prize of the year as far as I'm concerned... you hit the points very well and clear! Why can't others just agree and move on instead of this thread going the way of Smack's other thread which lost it way at some point?
guitarguy56 is offline  
post #205 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
I can't re Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western Mexico for now
Posts: 217
Thanks: 2
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy56 View Post
Boat is not the price of admission... in my sailing/yacht club... I don't participate in the regattas or races due to the big egos in the club that think they are better racers or that their boat is better than yours... trust me that in the lineup my Hunter is far far better than theirs not only in pristine condition but sail ready condition as well... It is simply stunning to hear their egos ramp up after several beers and drinks as much as we hear here... Sorry but those who believe the child's play at the sandbox ends there is foolish... We are all sailors, we all own sailboats of one type or another... and yet we simply can't get along because of our egos... Now that is 'crap'!
Ironic, isn't it?

goat
goat is offline  
post #206 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
guitarguy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,341
Thanks: 14
Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat View Post
Ironic, isn't it?

goat
You haven't seen the boats so how would you know? Is wasn't irony!
goat likes this.
guitarguy56 is offline  
post #207 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
I can't re Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western Mexico for now
Posts: 217
Thanks: 2
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy56 View Post
You haven't seen the boats so how would you know? Is wasn't irony!
The thing I found funny was your not liking the ol' fogies saying their boat was better than yours, then saying your boat was better than theirs.

Anyway since I can't tell the difference between production and whatever the other type of boat there is, I'll step back out of this discussion.

Have at 'er boys!

goat

Sorry George, I haven't noticed the signature line thing (not that I would ever dump on someone else's choice of boat)
seaner97 likes this.
goat is offline  
post #208 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
GeorgeB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,086
Thanks: 3
Thanked 69 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

So Goat, How about going into your User Profile and updating your Signature Line? Are you planning on taking your PSC down to Mex?

George B
2000 Catalina 34 MkII
Alameda, Ca.
GeorgeB is offline  
post #209 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
guitarguy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,341
Thanks: 14
Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat View Post
The thing I found funny was your not liking the ol' fogies saying their boat was better than yours, then saying your boat was better than theirs.
Goat... This is my point... I have been on their boats and they have been on mine... we all look at each others boats when cranking up for a regatta (not any more for me as mentioned earlier) and why I say my boat is in far better condition but somehow it's a Hunter so it must be of less value or that the keel will fall off (bets place on that cause it's iron keel as opposed to lead) or whatever Hunter haters say these days (crap?).


Quote:
Anyway since I can't tell the difference between production and whatever the other type of boat there is, I'll step back out of this discussion.

Have at 'er boys!
I think I'll follow your thoughts and move on too...
guitarguy56 is offline  
post #210 of 227 Old 02-10-2016
Senior Member
 
Omatako's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,705
Thanks: 1
Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: In praise of production boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
There are boats I consider to be production that are still low volume.
Of course there are and to me, if there is a definition of a "production boat", it would be if two or more boats are built that are totally identical (standard options excepted). If any primary element of the boat changes, it becomes a "special". Varying degrees of luxury have nothing to do with it. And the next comment brings this into perspective:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I agree. But does that make a boat production or not? If a Ford or Chevrolet is a production car does that mean that a BMW or Mercedes-Benz or Rolls Royce is not? I don't know.
Imagine asking BMW to build your car with a change to the existing spec? "Oh, can you ask them to make it a foot longer?" As an ex-product engineer for a major Japanese truck builder, I can tell you that, aside of standard options, they would not change a single bolt on any model in production no matter who asks.

So if your Bene can have any primary element changed on your request, the boat is a "custom build".

And a "production boat" does not need to be of the vanilla cruising variety. So the fact that a Carkeek is designed to race, does not mean that it isn't a production boat. If they build several boats exactly the same, it is a production boat.

So perhaps us all referring to the subject as "production boats" is already erroneous.
seaner97 likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

__________________

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

Arthur C. Clarke
Omatako is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production Boats and the Limits smackdaddy Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 5352 11-07-2017 11:02 AM
Current production small boats greggyN Boat Review and Purchase Forum 10 08-23-2015 06:12 PM
The demise of production boats Cruisingdad Boat Review and Purchase Forum 52 11-12-2007 07:03 AM
Modern Production Boats Don Casey Seamanship Articles 0 12-13-1999 08:00 PM
Modern Production Boats Don Casey Buying a Boat Articles 0 12-13-1999 08:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome