First Asym Try - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

Gotta agree with Jeff on this one. A sock is just more thing to go wrong; more things to do, more parts to malfunction, more stuff to stow. I can get my asym launched and doused single handed. I might use it more if it was less risky in strong wind but I don't use it in strong wind anyway...way too risky single handed because there is simply not enough time to react should something go wrong. I really like the idea of partially furling the headsail. I guess there is a big difference between racing procedure and cruising single handed procedures. The latter has more to do with safety and less with tenths of a second:-)

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post #32 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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I would like to see you single hand set and douse all 4,000 sq ft of our kite without a sock. Racing we don't need socks, we use a crew of 18. Socks may be a complication but for short handed sail handling they really are a necessity.
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post #33 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
I would like to see you single hand set and douse all 4,000 sq ft of our kite without a sock. Racing we don't need socks, we use a crew of 18. Socks may be a complication but for short handed sail handling they really are a necessity.
... unless the sails are on the small side..

Ron

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post #34 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
...I might use it more if it was less risky in strong wind but I don't use it in strong wind anyway...
...and that's the beauty of a sock. Most of us won't intentionally deploy a spinnaker in strong wind, but as we have all found out, wind speed can change, in seconds.

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post #35 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
I would like to see you single hand set and douse all 4,000 sq ft of our kite without a sock. Racing we don't need socks, we use a crew of 18. Socks may be a complication but for short handed sail handling they really are a necessity.
I don't think it is all that binary. There are a lot things which make sense on bigger boats, but which I see as unnecessary complexities or even bad ideas on smaller boats. In my mind, things like wheel steering, electric winches, in-mast furlers, and windlasses fall in that category where they make sense for bigger boats and are bad ideas on smaller boats.

When it comes to spinnaker socks, I routinely fly my spinnaker single-handed without a sock on my 38 footer, and have carried and doused it in 15 knots apparent (over 20 knots true) single-handed without a problem. But I doubt that I could do that on a boat that is more than 3-4 feet bigger than mine, or on a masthead rig.

As Dave (SVAuspicious) noted our opinions are rarely this far apart, and when we have held differing opinions, I have usually ended up thinking that Dave's position has usually been basically more safety conscious and a better idea for most folks. *grin*

In this case, I have had such bad experiences with both spinnaker socks and with assyms. that I have a tough time considering them to be the safer option on a boat that is small enough to be single-handed without a sock.

But that does not mean that I think that Dave is wrong. His chutes are much larger than mine, and he may have procedures for handling the sail in the sock which prevents them from going up with a wrap.

And the one thing that I will say in favor of a sock, is that unless there is a bad wrap on the forestay, if the sock fails, in an emergency you can always do the kind of drop that you would with without a sock and clean up the mess later.

Jeff


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post #36 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Jeff, with those qualifiers, I agree 100%. Racing or cruising a 35 footer, a sock, or electric winches, or in mast furling isn't needed. Your comment early on about not needing socks for a big boat, I thought were off the mark, YMMV. Socks for short handed cruisers on 40+ footers makes sense IMO. My wife and I often raced our 35' double handed with 1,200 sq ft syms and assys without socks. We letterboxed or went Mexican in the light stuff with no problems. Maneuvers were quicker with a crew of 10 though more beer was required ?.
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Re: First Asym Try

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Jeff, with those qualifiers, I agree 100%. Racing or cruising a 35 footer, a sock, or electric winches, or in mast furling isn't needed. Your comment early on about not needing socks for a big boat, I thought were off the mark, YMMV. Socks for short handed cruisers on 40+ footers makes sense IMO. My wife and I often raced our 35' double handed with 1,200 sq ft syms and assys without socks. We letterboxed or went Mexican in the light stuff with no problems. Maneuvers were quicker with a crew of 10 though more beer was required ?.
Shockwave,

Keep in mind the OP was asking about using a sock on his 30' not 40+.

Personally I don't like socks, I have had issues in the past with one getting caught on the mast head crane and had to send someone up the rig to clear it. We probably could have dropped it without doing so if we were ok with ripping it to shreds.

These days I think socks make even less sense than they used to. With top down furlers coming down in price and getting far better in ease of use they would be my go to for taming a large asym. But I still wouldn't use one on a 30' it just isn't necessary.

Greg
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post #38 of 53 Old 03-23-2016
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Stumble, my comments were relative to Jeff's post (16) stating that socks weren't safe on big boats, I don't agree. I don't believe a tdf is safe on a big boat with short crew, it's to easy too have wraps where the kite is partially furled, then what. Sail management is different relative to the boat size and crew composition. How I handle sails short handed on a 35' is vastly different then how I handle sails on a 60', with qualified crew there use little difference.
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Stumble, my comments were relative to Jeff's post (16) stating that socks weren't safe on big boats, I don't agree. I don't believe a tdf is safe on a big boat with short crew, it's to easy too have wraps where the kite is partially furled, then what. Sail management is different relative to the boat size and crew composition. How I handle sails short handed on a 35' is vastly different then how I handle sails on a 60', with qualified crew there use little difference.
It sounds like we have been in agreement all along. With all due respect I think you misread my post 16. I specifically say that socks are fine on bigger boats and when there are larger crews. My comment about them being dangerous refers to smaller boats and single-hand.

Jeff


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post #40 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Jeff, if I misunderstood your post I apologise but this is your quote

"My opinion is that a sock is fine when you have a big boat and a lot of crew, but is not a safe alternative for single-handers"

I believe a sock is the only safe method of handling large free flying sails on large boats with short crews. I would not trust a tdf for our size sails without full crew.

The rest, we're in agreement on.
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