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post #41 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Jeff, if I misunderstood your post I apologise but this is your quote

"My opinion is that a sock is fine when you have a big boat and a lot of crew, but is not a safe alternative for single-handers"

I believe a sock is the only safe method of handling large free flying sails on large boats with short crews. I would not trust a tdf for our size sails without full crew.

The rest, we're in agreement on.
My whole quote was, "My opinion is that a sock is fine when you have a big boat and a lot of crew, but is not a safe alternative for single-handers, and is totally unnecessary on a smaller boat."

My point was that if you have enough crew, then a sock is a reasonable alternative on a big boat. But if you are single-handed, I see counting on a sock as a dangerous alternative. It sounds like we are in agreement on that.

Where you and I differ is that in my opinion, if you have a big boat and don't have enough crew (ideally a minimum of three for the reasons explained above) to use a sock safely, then I see the only safe alternatives as either not using a chute, or else using one of the top-down furlers which in my mind have more than proven themselves in round the world single-handed and crewed racing, and which I believe are much more reliable than a sock.

Jeff


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post #42 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Jeff, I understand you're very experienced and I respect that. But we are in total disagreement regarding sail management of large free flying sails. I consider tdf's totally unsafe and socks the only viable options for short handed crews flying large sails. Hell, my sailmaker refuses to sell us a tdf knowing my wife and I mostly cruise short handed. Our sail maker builds over 1000 big boat annually and he's raced 10,000 of thousands of miles here on the great lakes on all manner of big boats.

Again, I respect you but totally disagree this particular point.
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post #43 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

Shockwave,

I appreciate your feelings, but there is a reason every single short handed, off shore race boat uses top down furlers. From the Open 60's to the MOD's they are universal. Even the crewed big boats have started switching to furlers, because the ease of sail handling makes putting the sails up safer and faster.

They really aren't experimental anymore, and with a market penetration of 100% in big boat short hand racing, and about the same in big boat crewed racing, it may be worth looking into them again.
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Last edited by Stumble; 03-24-2016 at 12:10 PM.
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post #44 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by RocketScience View Post
...and that's the beauty of a sock. Most of us won't intentionally deploy a spinnaker in strong wind, but as we have all found out, wind speed can change, in seconds.
I have found that there is always enough decision time to take down a spinnaker if you're paying attention. Wind can change quickly to some extent within a few knots but when winds start to clock up, it's time to reduce large sails that may be overpowered-genoas, mains, headsails. Most of us learn the lesson of leaving sails up way too long the hard way. It's true especially sailing downwind when apparent wind sneaks up on you and you're having so much fun surfing down wave faces:-).

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Last edited by smurphny; 03-24-2016 at 10:29 AM. Reason: sp
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post #45 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I have found that there is always enough decision time to take down a spinnaker if you're paying attention.
It is like reefing, do it if you ask yourself the question.

The key with a spinnaker to to pay attention to what is behind you.

The worst experience I have had occurred in Johnstone Strait when I saw some white caps developing astern and thought "I should get this gennaker down soon." That "soon" should have been "now".
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Re: First Asym Try

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Jeff, I understand you're very experienced and I respect that. But we are in total disagreement regarding sail management of large free flying sails. I consider tdf's totally unsafe and socks the only viable options for short handed crews flying large sails. Hell, my sailmaker refuses to sell us a tdf knowing my wife and I mostly cruise short handed. Our sail maker builds over 1000 big boat annually and he's raced 10,000 of thousands of miles here on the great lakes on all manner of big boats.

Again, I respect you but totally disagree this particular point.

Top down. set up correctly with a bow sprit for separation and a proper crane and forestay spacing is the safest and easiest way to single handily set and retrieve an asymmetric or code zero. The larger the boat the more important the Top down furler is to safety of the crew.
many try it but don't set up the boat to fit a Top down furler, they just want to add one to a boat that can't handle one because it was not designed for one. The sail also has to be designed to be used with a top down furler, many older asymmetric spinnakers will not work well because they do not have a soft head on the sail and will hang up on the forestay during a furl. Sail shape is also important in the design, reaching sails are easier to furl then a full down wind cut sail. boats that do not gain by down wind gybing may not be a good fit for an asymmetric. Sailmakers want to sell sails and if they see it is not a good fit for you or your boat they will try to sell you something else.
A properly set up torque rope can make the furler, cheap out on the torque rope and it can be a disaster.
All the new all out race boats use them but they are planning hulls designed to use reaching sails and therefor the asymmetric on a furler is the best and safest fit for them.

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Last edited by overbored; 03-24-2016 at 11:17 AM.
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post #47 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

Guys, here's my concern. Watch Loyal at about 41 minutes into the video. This is a professional boat, with an unlimited budget, teed up for the biggest race of the year. These are the kinds of wraps that concern me. I've never had a problem dousing the assy or sim with socks sailing shorthanded. Again, tdf's are fine for fully crewed big boats, the manpower is aboard to deal with it but if it's just the wife and I and we wrap the thing with 2/3 of the kite deployed it could be interesting. Again, we don't have to agree but with a j of 26 and an i of 87 this is how we manage our free flying sails.

Oh, I liked the comment "a bit untidy", so colloquial.


Last edited by Shockwave; 03-24-2016 at 12:42 PM.
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post #48 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

Shockwave,

Yup, furlers can come untwisted. But note that every single one of the maxis use furlers, as do almost all of the +50'. Until you get into the older symmetrical boats I don't think you are going to find a real racing program not using them these days.

I can almost guarantee that there isn't a single one using a sock.

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post #49 of 53 Old 03-24-2016
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Stumble, I agree with what you're saying. But my belief is socks are safer then tdf's for short handed big boats, the video of loyal exhibits my fears. I disagree with Jeff that socks are unsafe for big boat, short handed crews and that's OK, we can disagree.
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post #50 of 53 Old 03-25-2016
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Re: First Asym Try

those big maxis cant use a sock as they don't have an area of dead air to hoist one on the boat at the angles they sail. The sock would aways be blown by an apparent wind of 20 to 25 knots. Big slow boats can hide a hoist behind the main but big fast boats would have to turn down wind and slow down to do the hoist and that is just not done while at their level of racing.

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