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post #11 of 60 Old 05-04-2016
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Re: Sail controls

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Originally Posted by cb32863 View Post
Unfortunately I have seen multiple posts in various places that talk about how a traveler is unnecessary. "It's a racer thing". Seriously? How does one point properly without using one? I think it is so odd that people think that way.
You can control your leech with the vang just as efficiently as with a main sheet and traveler. Some performance boats like the Xp55 don't even have traveler. I myself use the vang and when motivated (25+kts) use the traveler to ease the main down in the puffs. Other than that I just use it to let the sheet car down when going down wind because the sheet interferes with my winch.

I myself use all the adjustments and tricks to hit the polars of my boat just a few inches of adjustment on a genny car can improve your speed by a knot, and in a 60 mile sail means you get there 2 hours earlier! On a 1500 mile passage makes it a day or so earlier thats why. I've noticed that if the adjustments are hard to do people tend not to do them or too complicated to set up. But if you put a 3 to 1 on your tac line so you can adjust it by hand and start fooling around with it and feel your boat accelerate you start go hmm what else can I do. Thats when you become an addict.
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Last edited by rckfd; 05-05-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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post #12 of 60 Old 05-04-2016
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Re: Sail controls

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Originally Posted by rckfd View Post
You can control your leech with the vang just as efficiently as with a main sheet and traveler. Some performance boats like the Xp55 don't even have traveler.
That is a clear cut case of my reason # 3) "They have an exceptionally strong vang with a lift spring and an extremely strong boom and gooseneck, so the mainsheet is not used to control twist at all." In the case of the Xp55 it appears to be a carbon fiber boom. I can only speculate on what the gooseneck and mast reinforcing must be with that kind of thrust.

But I would disagree that you can control the leech as efficiently with the vang as with the mainsheet and traveler. Vangs tend to be pretty blunt instruments that are hard to control with the kind of precision that comes from pairing the traveler and mainsheet.
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post #13 of 60 Old 05-04-2016
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Re: Sail controls

I use every line on the boat every trip.

Sheet
Cunningham
Mast rotator
Travler

But those are also the only lines on the boat.

Greg
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post #14 of 60 Old 05-04-2016
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Re: Sail controls

I've got a decrepit old Catalina 30. I've upgraded all the running gear to something that isn't quite so 1980's.. and it also all works now.

I use _almost_ everything. What I'll rarely tweak is:

Jib Car position. - We often have pretty much the same conditions, with the same sail - so it's usually pretty close. My 135 is a blown out hunk of crap too. The 150 was a great sail for around socal, but it needs repair.

Leech lines. The Jib's kinda broken. The main works where it's set till I pull in the first reef....

Cunningham. Don't have one.

What I tweak alot: Jib sheets and traveler are the most tweaked. I've got a new full-battened main on the boat and it want's quite a bit of twist in it - to get that I need to have the traveler pretty far on the high side to let the mainsheet out enough to get the sail lookin good. I do not use the vang upwind at all (as I think I could rip it out of the mast if I really honked on it)

Do not fly a sym, only an asym. Not much to tweak there - the tack and the sheet. Still workin on it to get it flying well at really deep angles. Yup, I know... 135 or so. One of these days I'm going to try a double headsl rig with a poled out genny and the asym. Betcha that's a decent DDW rig.
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post #15 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

I try to pull on all of the various bits of string available to me at some point during a sail.
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post #16 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
If someone does not think that a Traveler is necessary either:
1) They do not understand sail trim, what a traveller is for, and therefore how beneficial it is for a cruising sailor (almost more than a racing sailor).
2) They are a boat builder cutting corners and trying to sell a boat to the person in #1.
3) They have an exceptionally strong vang with a lift spring and an extremely strong boom and gooseneck, so the mainsheet is not used to control twist at all.
4) They own a boat with double main sheet tackles that effectively control twist by biasing the loads between them.
5) They sail a boat which is so unresponsive or has so small a mainsail that proper sail shape does not matter.
6) They are too lazy to care about sail trim and so take what they get.
Item 3 is easy to add, Garhauer makes a splendid one.

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post #17 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

I forgot spin controls.
Topping lift
downhaul
sometimes twings.
Sheet/guy (one and one, I don't run 2 sets to each side, its only a 26 footer)
Halyard!!!!

Love watching people wash their spinnakers broaching... I'm guilty of it too, but darnit blow the halyard first then the sheet!

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post #18 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
That is a clear cut case of my reason # 3) "They have an exceptionally strong vang with a lift spring and an extremely strong boom and gooseneck, so the mainsheet is not used to control twist at all." In the case of the Xp55 it appears to be a carbon fiber boom. I can only speculate on what the gooseneck and mast reinforcing must be with that kind of thrust.

But I would disagree that you can control the leech as efficiently with the vang as with the mainsheet and traveler. Vangs tend to be pretty blunt instruments that are hard to control with the kind of precision that comes from pairing the traveler and mainsheet.
No disrespect my sailing brother but seeing that on my 74 force 5 bought new my and my 84 j/30 again bought new both with just the block and line vangs using it to set the leech I never have had a failure on either at the points you refer. On my 01 j/32 I have had to replace the bushing on the upper part of the goose neck between the boom and mast due to wear but still after somewhere around 15 years no failure on that one either.
Personally that was the way I was trained called "vang sheeting" when you head out using the sheet adjusting the leech to the conditions once set take the slack out of the vang then the rest of the day use either the sheet or traveler to open and close the door in the puffs. All the other sail depowering done with the other adjustments outhaul, backstay, cuningham etc. Ever watch upper level Finn and Laser sailors all of them sail the same way.
Now I've only been sailing since 1964 I know my experience is limited but never had failure on any of those points. Hell on the 30 we use to do what we'd call a spinning take down. Thats when flying the spinnaker in a 30 knot breeze you broach the boat and when it spins into the wind you blow the halyard and the sail just drops to the deck. I don't know how many times the boom would be stuck in the drink no goose neck/vang failure.
Over the 50 some years I have been sailing soooooooo many times I've heard stories of people busting out the goose neck on a gybe but have never meet the person it's happen to, always a friend of a friend. I have to tell ya I think its urban legend and anybody that, that has actually happened to I'd like to talk to, because I too would like to be able to say"I know this guy".
When you really look at the physics of a boom there are a few other points where you should have failures like .25 d shackles bails traveler cars all fail points of sudden impact on a gybe that have much greater leverage than the goose neck end of the boom. Those are all the points I have had failures, couple of times I have had those little ball bearings from a Harken windward sheeting car exploding into the cockpit I've had d shackles blocks bails all just fail in breezy conditions never a vang or goose neck.
I just wanted to put it out there for the people with that mythological fear that they are going to bust out their mast to let them know it's a common practice sailors use. The efficiency is you are making one adjustment instead of 2 (vang verses sheet and traveler) in the puffs dump off air by dropping the boom not twisted it off the top and then try to get that setting back when you can just bring the boom back up. Don't over think it adjusting the leech all you're doing is alining the top of the sail with the bottom maybe a hair of a twist. That can be done at the beginning of the day with vang and forgot. Angle of attack you do with either the sheet or traveler all the other depowering is done by other adjustments. If you feel the need to be constantly inching in and out on the sheet and traveler looking for the "philosopher stone" thats not trimming it's OCD and this forum is the wrong one.

But hey if it makes you feel better be my guest...
Oh yeah the 55 I raced on had an aluminum boom and mast carbon was a extra ;-)

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post #19 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

While I agree responsible use of the vang rarely results in a broken boom, I beg to differ that its "Urban legend." Certain boats are prone to it (weaker boom section I guess).

It'd be a small hurricane, and oversheeting vang only that could bust my boom, and it'd also be a minor miracle to crack the goose on it. The S2 is a bit "over designed" in that way. My Capri 25, had a pathetic boom, and goose, but then it was a masthead rig, and had a baby boom (so also designed heavy enough given the size).




I recall seeing a J80 that split their boom from oversheeting the vang (think I saw it on the Sailing A site), but looking at the damage it was a "misuse" thing, not really a huge design flaw. I could see where a carbon fiber boom racing machine might do it though (given the right wind, waves, and misuse.

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post #20 of 60 Old 05-05-2016
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Re: Sail controls

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Originally Posted by SHNOOL View Post
While I agree responsible use of the vang rarely results in a broken boom, I beg to differ that its "Urban legend." Certain boats are prone to it (weaker boom section I guess).

It'd be a small hurricane, and oversheeting vang only that could bust my boom, and it'd also be a minor miracle to crack the goose on it. The S2 is a bit "over designed" in that way. My Capri 25, had a pathetic boom, and goose, but then it was a masthead rig, and had a baby boom (so also designed heavy enough given the size).




I recall seeing a J80 that split their boom from oversheeting the vang (think I saw it on the Sailing A site), but looking at the damage it was a "misuse" thing, not really a huge design flaw. I could see where a carbon fiber boom racing machine might do it though (given the right wind, waves, and misuse.
Thanks now I can say I saw it. Never thought i'd break there though.
When the 80 came out I crewed on one and heard the same stories but again by way of a friend of a friend thing. Did a lot of crashing, banging, breaking and bending other stuff though. My j/30 you'd get a lot of sway/dip in the boom never gave it much mind.
What was that break on, did you personally see it?
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