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post #21 of 49 Old 07-22-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Well looks like we sold our Nor'sea 27. I've been looking at the Brewer 12.8, Bristols, Pearsons center cockpit with center boards and they all look fine on Yachtworld but the boat that has really caught my eye is a Moody 419. She has 3 cabins, CC and board and mast height is acceptable. What we need to do is line up several boats that are in out price range with the desired features then go see them. Are all boats for sale by brokers on Yachtworld? I want to limit the search to the east coast and gulf coast. Also is it normal for the broker not to answer email questions? Any comment on the Moody?

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post #22 of 49 Old 07-22-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by jackdaw View Post
It's way to easy to overthink LOA vs LWL. Pick the boat you like regardless.

Many think that max LWL for a given LOA is best and it often is good, but not always.

My little boat (the First 260) is plumb on both ends, and has a delta between the two measurements of FOUR INCHES. Fun right? Max hull speed right? Mostly, but in lighter airs BELOW hull speed, its just more paint to drag through the water. High LOA/LWL ratio boats are often sticky in light airs. Hull speed only matters when you can get to it.
Interesting, I never thought of it that way.
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post #23 of 49 Old 07-22-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdaw View Post
It's way to easy to overthink LOA vs LWL. Pick the boat you like regardless.

Many think that max LWL for a given LOA is best and it often is good, but not always.

My little boat (the First 260) is plumb on both ends, and has a delta between the two measurements of FOUR INCHES. Fun right? Max hull speed right? Mostly, but in lighter airs BELOW hull speed, its just more paint to drag through the water. High LOA/LWL ratio boats are often sticky in light airs. Hull speed only matters when you can get to it.
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Originally Posted by albrazzi View Post
Interesting, I never thought of it that way.
There is a good reason that you never thought of it that way. There is no reason to think that a boat that has a long waterline relative to it's length on deck would be "sticky" in light air. A particular design might be sticky in light air but not because it has short overhangs.

In the case of the First 260 it has an SA/D of 19.9, and it takes an SA/D in the mid 20's to get decent Light air performance. It also dragging two rudders through the water, one always slightly cocked so as to create drag but little steering.

Light air performance is all about sail area to wetted surface, and to a lesser extent sail area to displacement.

Wetted surface is all about the shape of the boat in the water, and it doesn't care whether there are long or short overhangs in flat water. In a chop, a boat with long overhangs tends to pitch more, and so if equally shaped below the waterline the boat with short overhangs should be less sticky.

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post #24 of 49 Old 07-22-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
There is a good reason that you never thought of it that way. There is no reason to think that a boat that has a long waterline relative to it's length on deck would be "sticky" in light air. A particular design might be sticky in light air but not because it has short overhangs.

In the case of the First 260 it has an SA/D of 19.9, and it takes an SA/D in the mid 20's to get decent Light air performance. It also dragging two rudders through the water, one always slightly cocked so as to create drag but little steering.

Light air performance is all about sail area to wetted surface, and to a lesser extent sail area to displacement.

Wetted surface is all about the shape of the boat in the water, and it doesn't care whether there are long or short overhangs in flat water. In a chop, a boat with long overhangs tends to pitch more, and so if equally shaped below the waterline the boat with short overhangs should be less sticky.

Jeff
You might want to reread his post and reconstruct your statement. He said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdaw View Post
...High LOA/LWL ratio boats are often sticky in light airs...
Boats with high LOA/LWL ratios have longer overhangs, not short ones, and they thus have a shorter waterline relative to length on deck, not a longer one.

Although it's confusing, I think his statement agreed with you overall, though perhaps with different assumptions about sailing conditions.

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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
You might want to reread his post and reconstruct your statement. He said:

Boats with high LOA/LWL ratios have longer overhangs, not short ones, and they thus have a shorter waterline relative to length on deck, not a longer one.

Although it's confusing, I think his statement agreed with you overall, though perhaps with different assumptions about sailing conditions.
I see your point about the way that one sentence is phrased since the mre conventional way to describe the relationship between the length on deck vs. waterline length is the percentage that the LWL is of the LOA. But he gives an example of a boat with minimal overhangs as a boat with more paint to drag through the water and therefore sticky in light air. And that was the point I was responding to.
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post #26 of 49 Old 07-23-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by Skipper Jer View Post
Well looks like we sold our Nor'sea 27. I've been looking at the Brewer 12.8, Bristols, Pearsons center cockpit with center boards and they all look fine on Yachtworld but the boat that has really caught my eye is a Moody 419. She has 3 cabins, CC and board and mast height is acceptable. What we need to do is line up several boats that are in out price range with the desired features then go see them. Are all boats for sale by brokers on Yachtworld? I want to limit the search to the east coast and gulf coast. Also is it normal for the broker not to answer email questions? Any comment on the Moody?

Well a good broker will respond within a day to any emails. If it is the boat in VA on yachtworld then it does look like a lot of boat for the money. Perhaps the broker's email is as bad as his photography skills. Color correction in those photos is abysmal. My biggest concern would be that Thornycraft engine. I believe it is based on a Ford diesel that was never offered here so parts may well be hard to get, and not just expensive (a pain but not always that big of a deal) but could take a long time to get here, as in months. Not bad if you order something as a backup part but you could miss out on a good part of the sailing season waiting on a part. Apparently they are prone to osmosis as well, so be sure to check that out.

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post #27 of 49 Old 07-23-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Well a good broker will respond within a day to any emails. If it is the boat in VA on yachtworld then it does look like a lot of boat for the money. Perhaps the broker's email is as bad as his photography skills. Color correction in those photos is abysmal. My biggest concern would be that Thornycraft engine. I believe it is based on a Ford diesel that was never offered here so parts may well be hard to get, and not just expensive (a pain but not always that big of a deal) but could take a long time to get here, as in months. Not bad if you order something as a backup part but you could miss out on a good part of the sailing season waiting on a part. Apparently they are prone to osmosis as well, so be sure to check that out.
Yes the Thornycraft engine is one of my biggest concerns. Didn't know about the osmosis issue. The other concern is ballast, lead or iron? Looking at pictures and seeing the boat might change my opinion of the condition. The other issue (minor) is the amount of equipment she has on board. She can always be equipped but then the sail away price approaches some of the better equipped (yes at a higher price) boats on my list. The other issue (very minor but irritating) is one has to PAY to join the Moody user group. WTF??

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post #28 of 49 Old 07-23-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Yes the Thornycraft engine is one of my biggest concerns. Didn't know about the osmosis issue. The other concern is ballast, lead or iron? Looking at pictures and seeing the boat might change my opinion of the condition. The other issue (minor) is the amount of equipment she has on board. She can always be equipped but then the sail away price approaches some of the better equipped (yes at a higher price) boats on my list. The other issue (very minor but irritating) is one has to PAY to join the Moody user group. WTF??
That seems to be common from UK groups, not sure if hosting service is more expensive there or not. Of course it is likely advert free. There was a Rival group I almost joined when looking at one. seems they should offer a 30 day trial for people looking at them I would think the ballast would be iron, as it seems most of the euro boats are, likely tighter regulations. Not a pretty boat, but gives lots of accommodations for the money.

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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Iron ballast and encapsulated? If it is then I'll pass. Yea the Moody group has a free trial but you can't ask technical questions. I'll try the free membership and ask about ballast see if I get any worthwhile answers. The big draw on the Moody is the third cabin. We did an RV trip last summer. The grandkids had to sleep on the dinning room table converted into a bed. Truly don't want to go thru that again, especially on a boat. Didn't think she was an ugly duckling, more like an average Jane.
Flame suit on.

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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Iron ballast and encapsulated? If it is then I'll pass. Yea the Moody group has a free trial but you can't ask technical questions. I'll try the free membership and ask about ballast see if I get any worthwhile answers. The big draw on the Moody is the third cabin. We did an RV trip last summer. The grandkids had to sleep on the dinning room table converted into a bed. Truly don't want to go thru that again, especially on a boat. Didn't think she was an ugly duckling, more like an average Jane.
Flame suit on.
Yea, she is not offensive at all just not a standout. Aesthetically very staid. Not "modern" and not really "classic" either. As you said average Jane. Often looks are not at the top of the heap, especially with other needs. Lack of exterior wood is nice for sure too! I thought all Moody boats had bolt on keel, but not sure how that would do with the centerboard. They do have issues with corrosion as they used milled steel rather than stainless to avoid the crevice corrosion issues of SS. I was not familiar with these but it appears not many of the centerboard ones were made. If I was ready to move this big I might be interested. I really don't know what the phrase "seriously for sale" is supposed to mean though! There is a Moody 41 listed in the UK lists it as a hydraulic lifting keel. There are some photos of the keel in the listing.

1983 Moody 41 Lift Keel Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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