LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 49 Old 07-23-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Super Boots looks like a much better buy than the one in VA. From the pictures looks like the have one heck of a tide.
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post #32 of 49 Old 07-23-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
it takes an SA/D in the mid 20's to get decent Light air performance. It also dragging two rudders through the water, one always slightly cocked so as to create drag but little steering.
Jeff
Holy smokes. Other than a Farr 395 I don't think I have ever sailed a boat that fast.

The Farr was certainly not something I would want to cruise on. I crewed on a delivery and thought I was going to die coming back from Bermuda. Waves would hit the flat bottom like a jack hammer.

Are there any cruising boats about 40' that might possibly be available in the US at under 200k that pitch near the 25 mark?

Catalina 400 and Bene First 38 are about 17
Xy-yachts 38 is getting close but also closer to 300k

This one:
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3441 is about 20


I know there is no comparison between a 17 boat and a 25 boat but what about a 17 boat to a 20 boat.

Is the speed difference going to jump out at you.

Or by the time your load cruising gear on both boats, they are both slow.

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It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
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Last edited by davidpm; 07-23-2017 at 11:40 PM.
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post #33 of 49 Old 07-23-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

I think Jeff was talking about Sail area displacement ratios in the mid 20's, not boat speeds.

My boat has a SA/D of almost 31, but starts planing at about 5.5 and gets a little squirrelly south of 7 knots

Last edited by Arcb; 07-23-2017 at 11:44 PM.
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post #34 of 49 Old 07-24-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

And now for something completely different.

Consider if you will a Nonsuch 33 or 36. The perfect near shore cruiser. Simple to single hand, the room of a 45'r, very well built, hold their value with a strong owner's support association. They are surprisingly fast, point better than you think, and with a very comfortable sea-kindly motion with a fin keel and balanced rudder, well balanced in all conditions.

The 36 is 36 LOA, 33.75 LWL, 12.8 beam, 5.6 draft, 742' sail area, 65' air draft (62 + 3' antenna), 17,000 displacement, lead ballast 6500, SA/D 17.96, displacement/LWL 197, LWL/beam 2.66, capsize ratio 1.97, motion comfort 25.72, hull speed 7.78 (I've had it just over 10).

As for comfort, very well ventilated with 4 dorades, 4 hatches, and 10 opening ports. At anchor or port the cockpit is huge, down below there is 6'5" headroom, and a well appointed and laid out interior, 2 staterooms, pullman berths, large head w/separate stall shower, U-galley, large salon and lots of lockers. With the free standing wishbone rig the decks are wide open, sail drops into a cradle, and no worries with a boom, no need for a vang, simplicity. Spacious lazarettes and very good room around the engine. There is a bow pulpit with double anchor rollers and a large samson post and huge anchor locker to take care of all anchoring needs without problems. There is a 45 gal fuel tank, 150 gal water tanks, and a 45 gal waste tank.

Not for crossing oceans (1 sail, large cockpit, low bridge deck), but very capable for the East Coast, Bahamas and the Caribbean and in comfort and simplicity of rig. Designed by Mark Ellis and built by George Hinterhoeller, check it out.

From an admittedly biased and happy owner, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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post #35 of 49 Old 07-24-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Holy smokes. Other than a Farr 395 I don't think I have ever sailed a boat that fast.

The Farr was certainly not something I would want to cruise on. I crewed on a delivery and thought I was going to die coming back from Bermuda. Waves would hit the flat bottom like a jack hammer.

Are there any cruising boats about 40' that might possibly be available in the US at under 200k that pitch near the 25 mark?

Catalina 400 and Bene First 38 are about 17
Xy-yachts 38 is getting close but also closer to 300k

This one:
X-412 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com is about 20


I know there is no comparison between a 17 boat and a 25 boat but what about a 17 boat to a 20 boat.

Is the speed difference going to jump out at you.

Or by the time your load cruising gear on both boats, they are both slow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
I think Jeff was talking about Sail area displacement ratios in the mid 20's, not boat speeds.

My boat has a SA/D of almost 31, but starts planing at about 5.5 and gets a little squirrelly south of 7 knots
I apologise for my poorly written post. Nominally, SA/D is typically calculated using the 100% foretriangle and the triangular area of the mainsail. That yields a number that can be compared from one boat to another and minimizes the impact of inefficiency due to geometry of the sail plan.

But to get a boat to be able to sail in light air, there is a minimum threshold amount of sail area relative to displacement. That threshold can be achieved with genoas and spinnakers and the like. In the case of the Beneteau First 260 it has a nominal SA/D around 20, and a standing sail plan around 21. But I don't think that the First 260 can fly genoas over 110% or so, because of thier wide spreaders, which makes it hard to get to SA/D around 25 or more. And that was the point I was trying to make.

Jeff


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post #36 of 49 Old 07-25-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
I think Jeff was talking about Sail area displacement ratios in the mid 20's, not boat speeds.

My boat has a SA/D of almost 31, but starts planing at about 5.5 and gets a little squirrelly south of 7 knots
I was talking about SA/D also.

I just went to sailboatdata and looked up Far 395 etc and it said 25 for SA/D. The crusing boats Catalina etc were all about 17 SA/D

What am I missing?

I still don't see any cruising boats that make it to an SA/D of 20.

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It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.
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post #37 of 49 Old 07-25-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I apologise for my poorly written post. Nominally, SA/D is typically calculated using the 100% foretriangle and the triangular area of the mainsail. That yields a number that can be compared from one boat to another and minimizes the impact of inefficiency due to geometry of the sail plan.

But to get a boat to be able to sail in light air, there is a minimum threshold amount of sail area relative to displacement. That threshold can be achieved with genoas and spinnakers and the like. In the case of the Beneteau First 260 it has a nominal SA/D around 20, and a standing sail plan around 21. But I don't think that the First 260 can fly genoas over 110% or so, because of thier wide spreaders, which makes it hard to get to SA/D around 25 or more. And that was the point I was trying to make.

Jeff
That makes sense.

While you are in the mood to explain things check out my next question. It is sufficiently clueless to deserve its own thread.

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It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
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post #38 of 49 Old 07-26-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
.....I still don't see any cruising boats that make it to an SA/D of 20.
The Hylas 70 has an SA/D of 21.6. She's a cruising boat, right?


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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I was talking about SA/D also.

I just went to sailboatdata and looked up Far 395 etc and it said 25 for SA/D. The crusing boats Catalina etc were all about 17 SA/D

What am I missing?

I still don't see any cruising boats that make it to an SA/D of 20.
My bad, I reread your post. When I read you had never sailed a boat that fast, I thought you were talking actual boat speed, not potential for boat speed.

The thread got a bit confusing.

But I think most cruising cats have a SA/D of over 20.
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post #40 of 49 Old 07-26-2017
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

Why aren't you looking at a big cat? The cats have multiple cabins in the hulls with stand up space. Should be plenty fast enough. With two hulls, you have divided space, which means you have more places to live in, rather than always being stuck in the middle cabin down below. In addition, a cat sails flat, which improves the number of places you can sit and still be comfortable.

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