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post #41 of 49 Old 07-26-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Why aren't you looking at a big cat? The cats have multiple cabins in the hulls with stand up space. Should be plenty fast enough. With two hulls, you have divided space, which means you have more places to live in, rather than always being stuck in the middle cabin down below. In addition, a cat sails flat, which improves the number of places you can sit and still be comfortable.
You make a good argument in favor of cats. The short answer, OMG THE BEAM! I have nothing against cats. The ones I've stumbled across are out of our price range. I've always been concerned about flipping over then not righting. That might be an irrational fear. I have some, like sudden molecular disassociation of polyester resin. I don't know, guess it wouldn't hurt to take a look. The misses might be all in favor which would improve sailing quality. The grandkids would love the forward deck area for sure. Thanks for your comment.
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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I just went to sailboatdata and looked up Far 395 etc and it said 25 for SA/D. The crusing boats Catalina etc were all about 17 SA/D

What am I missing?
There are a number of things that come into play. Its mostly about designing a boat as a system. So when you look at modern performance cruisers, they tend to have very tall fractional rigs with minimally overlapping headsails, bendable spars, and an inability to carry large percentage overlap genoas.

These are wildly efficient sail plans in terms of drive to drag, and a configuration that can quickly be depowered rather than reefed in a building breeze. But rigs like these generate a lot of heeling moment compared to lower aspect ratio rigs and so need some mix of low drag hull forms and lots of stability. This mix makes sense because lower drag hull forms allow the rig to be smaller and produce less heeling since less drive is needed, and of course the high stability is needed to stand up to the rig over a wider range of wind speeds.

In other words, what makes the high performance cruisers of the past decade or so, with their very high SA/D's work, is that they generally have a huge amount of stability relative to their drag and can therefore get by with these more efficient sail plans. Most of these designs (Think of boats like the J-122, J-130, Aerodyne 38, Cape Fear 38, Farr 395, X-4 etc.) have SA/D's in the 22 to 26 range measured with their 100% foretriangle. The actual sail area of these boats with their minimally overlapping headsails ends up roughly in the 26 to 28 range. (Even my old Farr 11.6 ends starts in the 22.5 range)

In contrast, boats like the Catalinas that you mention, and most conservative coastal cruisers for that matter, are designed around carrying comparatively large overlap genoas in order to get decent mid-range sailing abilities. They are not really designed for light air performance. They generally lack the kind of high stability to low drag, that is required to carry a more efficient rig. Its just a different mindset. The reality is that most of these boats were designed with a generic owner in mind, one who is less concerned about light air performance than comfort and forgiving sailing characteristics. They are set up in ways that is consistent with not sailing at the extremes of the wind range, and without the kinds of sail shaping tools that allow a sail to be depowered quickly rather than reduced in size by reefing or furling.

Jeff
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Once you go cat, you'll never go back. They are expensive though.
Yes I was thinking twice the hulls, twice the expense.
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

[QUOTE=Jeff_H;4007866]Think of boats like the J-122, J-130, Aerodyne 38, Cape Fear 38, Farr 395, X-4 etc.) /QUOTE]

Thanks, Jeff, very educational as usual.

I flog this horse every year or so but sadly as much as I like the idea of a fast boat the idea of an older couple cruising and living aboard a boat like the ones mentioned above seems highly unlikely especially in relatively shallow water and under ICW bridges.

I see some high-end European boats that are bigger and much more expensive but so far have not found a boat that is both fast, 40ish feet, 100 to 200k, 5 to 15 years old.

Maybe it can't be built, or maybe the market is just not there.

Last year we talked about converting a racer into a cruiser and the end result was that it would just ruin the racer and not be a very comfortable cruiser.

Sigh, the tyranny of design reality.
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

[quote=davidpm;4009082]
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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Think of boats like the J-122, J-130, Aerodyne 38, Cape Fear 38, Farr 395, X-4 etc.) /QUOTE]

Thanks, Jeff, very educational as usual.

I flog this horse every year or so but sadly as much as I like the idea of a fast boat the idea of an older couple cruising and living aboard a boat like the ones mentioned above seems highly unlikely especially in relatively shallow water and under ICW bridges.

I see some high-end European boats that are bigger and much more expensive but so far have not found a boat that is both fast, 40ish feet, 100 to 200k, 5 to 15 years old.

Maybe it can't be built, or maybe the market is just not there.

Last year we talked about converting a racer into a cruiser and the end result was that it would just ruin the racer and not be a very comfortable cruiser.

Sigh, the tyranny of design reality.
David,

I struggle with this as you do. We are in the process of looking for our last boat to cruise in after we retire which is coming fast. I have had our 35C&C MKIII for over 20 years now. While she doesn't compare in Speed to the J or Farr like a Jeff has, she was designed as a one class racer on the Great Lakes and not only is classified as a racer / cruiser, but points higher than most boats. I have been used to for years finishing ahead of many and never felt " slow" even when compared with larger production boats.

However our sailing habits are changing and our need for comfort is outweighing the tight stiff boat which is really a racer. Our short list has a Mason 44, Bristol 45.5, Shannon 43 and a Hylas.

The one boat which seems to fit you bill for stability, fast, cruising which I also like is Bob Perrys Saga 43 which you can get for less than $200,000.


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Quote:
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Last year we talked about converting a racer into a cruiser and the end result was that it would just ruin the racer and not be a very comfortable cruiser.
That is a very accurate description of the sailboat compromised dilemma.

I once had my eye on and Amphicar. It was a German made vehicle that was a combination boat and car that was made in the 60s and marketed in the US.

Their owners proudly describe it as a not
very roadworthy car and a not very seaworthy boat and the neatest car they've ever owned.
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Think of boats like the J-122, J-130, Aerodyne 38, Cape Fear 38, Farr 395, X-4 etc.) /QUOTE]

Thanks, Jeff, very educational as usual.

I flog this horse every year or so but sadly as much as I like the idea of a fast boat the idea of an older couple cruising and living aboard a boat like the ones mentioned above seems highly unlikely especially in relatively shallow water and under ICW bridges.

I see some high-end European boats that are bigger and much more expensive but so far have not found a boat that is both fast, 40ish feet, 100 to 200k, 5 to 15 years old.

Maybe it can't be built, or maybe the market is just not there.

Last year we talked about converting a racer into a cruiser and the end result was that it would just ruin the racer and not be a very comfortable cruiser.

Sigh, the tyranny of design reality.
David,
Those boats cited in my example were not meant to be 'fast cruisers for an older couple'. They were meant to show what a boat with an SA/D in the 20's might look like, and for no particular reason most were chosen to be around 38-42 feet on deck.

But if you are looking for a boat that is "fast, 40-ish feet, 100 to 200k, 5 to 15 years old", they exist but they are rare. Think of it this way, the last time I saw statistics on this, there were less than 3,000 sailboats sold in the U.S. that were over 30 feet, and that represented approximately half of the sailboats of that size sold worldwide that year. In terms of length, there was a distorted bell curve that peaked at just a little less than 40 feet. If you think about the buying public, most are buying the higher production run, lower quality, coastal cruisers.

When you talk about live-aboard distance cruisers, these are a tiny piece of the marketplace. When you talk about performance oriented, live-aboard distance cruisers these are almost non-existent. And because that performance level requires more sophisticated design, construction, and engineering these boats end up being more expensive even if being constructed as production designs, but because they are limited in numbers (i.e. semi-custom) they also have that added cost. As nearly custom designs, many of these boats are built at premium yards as well (Cookson, Morris, Lindsey and so on), and that further adds to their cost. As a result, these boats often started out at twice the price of a larger volume coastal cruiser.

Its not that they don't exist. There are boats like the shoal draft version of the J-44 with the full cruising interior 1992 J Boats J/44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com , or the Farr 1220 (Design 165) Farr 44 (design 89)
http://www.boatersresources.com/boat...er-Used-375017

or Farr 46 (design 92) that come up for sale in your price range. There are larger production run boats like Beneteau 45F5 (AKA 45S5 for the Phillippe Starck interior) that fall in this category, and smaller production and way more expensive boats like the Morris 42RS and 44RS. I should note that these are longer boats but most of them are of a similar displacement to a more traditional 38-40 footer. In reality, ease of handling and most costs are proportionate to the displacement of the boat and not its length. But the greater length results in greater seaworthiness, and better performance, which are the major drivers in my own decision making process.

But it really comes down to what you personally are trying to accomplish. To me sailing ability is a major driver. Motoring down the ditch, less so. I would pick a boat that sails well, and is seaworthy, and which is easy to handle.

If I were regularly running north and south, I would probably jump offshore if I had a boat too tall and too deep for the ditch. When my dad was in his late 70's, he and my stepmom jumped out of Miami, sailed up the Atlantic Coast and came in at Beaufort, NC four days later with their Brewer 12.8. Dad swore he was more rested when they came in than when he left Miami. Going south he did the ditch and it was 3 weeks of higher stress. I have done a some of the ditch, and doing the ICW in a sailboat is not really my idea of fun.

Your mileage may vary.
Jeff
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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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That is a very accurate description of the sailboat compromised dilemma.

I once had my eye on and Amphicar. It was a German made vehicle that was a combination boat and car that was made in the 60s and marketed in the US.

Their owners proudly describe it as a not
very roadworthy car and a not very seaworthy boat and the neatest car they've ever owned.
I had a friend who's father had a Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9, beautifully restored and absolutely mint, and had an Amphicar the Amphicar was his favorite by a long shot. He was comfortable in the 450 SEL 6.9 but was always smiling when he drove or piloted the Amphicar. The A car always made me nervous in the water and was uncomfortable on the road. He drove a Jetta to work every day and had a ski boat so neither fancy car was anything but a toy.

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Re: LOA vs LWL, looking for a boat

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I had a friend who's father had a Mercedes 450 SEL 6.9, beautifully restored and absolutely mint, and had an Amphicar the Amphicar was his favorite by a long shot. He was comfortable in the 450 SEL 6.9 but was always smiling when he drove or piloted the Amphicar. The A car always made me nervous in the water and was uncomfortable on the road. He drove a Jetta to work every day and had a ski boat so neither fancy car was anything but a toy.
I have only met one Amphicar in person, in my life. The owner said that one of his favorite things was driving down a boat ramp and out into the water and watching the shocked faces of people, or to hear people yell warnings to not go so far down the boat ramp in his car. He said that the car is a heavy boat and enters the water with a pretty significant nose dive under the water, before it settles into trim bouyancy. He said that it always looks like it is rapidly sinking, at first, before leveling out.

I hoped that I would run into him one day, when I had money, and he was ready to sell it. I've never seen it in years. He either left town with it, or it is sitting in a garage somewhere.
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