Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick) - Page 23 - SailNet Community
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post #221 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

Do libertarians ever wonder why no one argues with them? Of course not - it must be their infallible logic! That's the kind of thought loop that even the hated " uncited chart" when examined reveals itself to be nothing more than actual proof of libertarian principles. It's like playing ping pong with a person who thinks out is a point.

In the interests of human decency I will spare us all a fully cited, with footnotes, debate on economics. Let's make it really simple - social security ( or as you call it entitlements) makes it easier to go sailing because you don't have to pay for your parents medication or food. When its your turn to go retirement cruising, SS adds to your kitty a little bit. After 2037 perhaps only 75% of what they should. But on the balance, entitlements are pro sailing. For most people.

Now, to be fair I will revisit the thrust of your earlier comment - low GDP growth rates combined with rising entitlements is responsible for the decline of sailing. Sorry to do this but if you look at a chart of the GDP you see a fairly consistently rising line. And we all know there more and more people on the planet so this makes some sense. But where is the correlation to the dying of sailboat ownership? ?? There is none, otherwise we should see a spike as sailing boomed in the 70's and a sag where it got less popular gradually down until today. I know, you think it's too slow, but historically speaking its increasing and the correlation doesn't seem to be there for your argument. Capiche?

Now just admit you were wrong like a man and let us move on. :-) I will accept your apology, in fact I already have.



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post #222 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Don't think vat is the cause. Once you leave the US majority of cruisers are not US citizens. Even Canadians are better represented although we greatly outnumber them. None I've seen are on us made boats. At all price points us boats seem to be at a competitive disadvantage even with the Europeans paying vat.

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post #223 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

To add fuel to this interesting discussion. Many citizens feel since FDR taxes have had as one of their primary goals attempt to influence behavior. Be that investment of capital, sin taxes, income redistribution, industrial or farming practices, consumption of nature resources such as water, or to address social inequities. They feel when stakeholders are at the table they are on the table as all elected representation do not have the skin in the game nor the life experience they do so are not representative of their or the end users interests. . So you get a skilled marketer and a career policitian where neither have any interest but their own expanding egos.
In response the public at large has lost the sense of "tribe" as used by Sabastian Junger. Watching others game the system for personal reward to survive they do the same. A logical abet unfortunate result. Given its approached as a game in which they have little or no influence on the rules they feel dissociated.
Responses to date be they libertarian, progressive or conservative do not realistically address the increasing absence of doing a good days work because there is honor in work, not screwing the other guy because it's just not right, honoring basic human dignity. Their premise doesn't address the conflict between Hobbs and Rousseau. "What do you expect...I'm a businessman ". "I did nothing illegal". Both statements reprehensible as are both candidates. There is an absence of "tribe".
One of the delightful things about sailing and cruising is that sense of tribe often still exists. For that reason regardless of these larger economic and social issues I believe recreational sailing has a future.
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post #224 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

You must have read or studied the works of Friedrich Hayek, best known for his adherence of and defense of 'classical' liberalism.
;-)
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post #225 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

Too many inconsistencies and he honored and worked for Pinochet. Nay, an interesting thinker but not my cup of tea. Not an economist so much of it is too dense for me.
More interested in ants. Surprised how collective intelligence and the Hegelian dialectic works. See it arrested in Middle East, Russia and concerned about rise of fascist thought here but remain hopeful.
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post #226 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
To add fuel to this interesting discussion. Many citizens feel since FDR taxes have had as one of their primary goals attempt to influence behavior. Be that investment of capital, sin taxes, income redistribution, industrial or farming practices, consumption of nature resources such as water, or to address social inequities. They feel when stakeholders are at the table they are on the table as all elected representation do not have the skin in the game nor the life experience they do so are not representative of their or the end users interests. . So you get a skilled marketer and a career policitian where neither have any interest but their own expanding egos.
In response the public at large has lost the sense of "tribe" as used by Sabastian Junger. Watching others game the system for personal reward to survive they do the same. A logical abet unfortunate result. Given its approached as a game in which they have little or no influence on the rules they feel dissociated.
Responses to date be they libertarian, progressive or conservative do not realistically address the increasing absence of doing a good days work because there is honor in work, not screwing the other guy because it's just not right, honoring basic human dignity. Their premise doesn't address the conflict between Hobbs and Rousseau. "What do you expect...I'm a businessman ". "I did nothing illegal". Both statements reprehensible as are both candidates. There is an absence of "tribe".
One of the delightful things about sailing and cruising is that sense of tribe often still exists. For that reason regardless of these larger economic and social issues I believe recreational sailing has a future.
There has been a severe resurgence of "tribalism" in the US. Political polarization is an example where left and right both have conflicting views that are held to tightly despite the obvious inconsistency. I think Juenger was attempting to address social contract, which has been shredded more or less progressively since 1980.
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post #227 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

What, no Smackdaddy to come in and pound his shoe on the table and scream about how this is a sailing forum?

Oh the humanity.
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

Sean I know you know it was not the parochial, provincial tribalism seen in the near east I was referring to. That is destructive. But rather as you state the communal feeling we are all in it together that underpins the social contract. Yes you are right too many identify themselves as first a member of a political party or subset of that party and second as a citizen of a nation. They don't realize they are voting against their own best interest. The concept of the general tribe of man is foreign.
My kids vote. They follow the news not the kadashians. They are considered exceptional by some of their peers. However there is a resurgence of a moral ethic in their peer group and desire to leave it better than they found it. Unfortunately too many don't see gov't as the mechanism.
In multiple threads people here rale against gov't. Be it the state of Florida. Or town harbormasters. Or Feds. Ultimately gov't is the solution. Problem is more rules, more power, more power less freedoms and more opportunities for unintended consequences.

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Quote:
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Sean I know you know it was not the parochial, provincial tribalism seen in the near east I was referring to. That is destructive. But rather as you state the communal feeling we are all in it together that underpins the social contract. Yes you are right too many identify themselves as first a member of a political party or subset of that party and second as a citizen of a nation. They don't realize they are voting against their own best interest. The concept of the general tribe of man is foreign.
My kids vote. They follow the news not the kadashians. They are considered exceptional by some of their peers. However there is a resurgence of a moral ethic in their peer group and desire to leave it better than they found it. Unfortunately too many don't see gov't as the mechanism.
In multiple threads people here rale against gov't. Be it the state of Florida. Or town harbormasters. Or Feds. Ultimately gov't is the solution. Problem is more rules, more power, more power less freedoms and more opportunities for unintended consequences.
Government is what we choose to do together. Government is us.
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post #230 of 230 Old 05-31-2016
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Re: Is sailboat ownership dying ( or at least sick)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
Government is what we choose to do together. Government is us.
Pogo had a quote about this very thing...
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