Racing season over - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 32 Old 06-06-2016
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Re: Racing season over

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Second race of the day. I was on the white Bene. We were on a port beat to a mark that we had to take on our starboard side.

It was blowing about 15k. It was really really close to clear the mark. If we fell off to starboard we would not round the mark the proper direction. The owner helmsman thought he could squeak it by and headed up just enough to get the bow of the boat past the mark then fall off to make a really tight rounding. He has done that many times. This time, we scraped the last 3 feet. We needed to do a penalty turn and we were all messed up for about 2 min as we tried to get speed again.

We were dorking around near the mark with no steerage way when the red boat rounded the mark, didn't see us and hit our port side taking off my sheet winch among other things.

Anchors, stern pulpits, booms, sails lines etc were all tangled for another couple minutes.

I got to use my knife in anger.
Nobody got hurt the boats did not sink.

Wonder how liability will be sorted.
Well the GREAT news is no one go hurt, and nothing looks structural. You should be back out soon!

Some thoughts:
First WTF is your PRO doing setting marks rounded to STARBOARD??? Port approaches in fleet racing are a recipe for disaster.

If a mark rounding is going to be tight, the driver should NEVER tried a 'squeek' or pinch by. Sail best angle at FULL SPEED, and then if you can shoot it at the last moment. Your full speed will give you momentum to coast straight into the wind for several lengths and a much better chance of making it. Or if not, tacking, again at full speed.

Blowing 15 knots and 2 minutes without way?? wow.

Its legal to get out of the ZONE before doing your turns. NEVER spin in the zone.

Your insurance will look at the protest. You didn't say you were done doing the turns, so that means you were not. Your best possible get out of jail card would be that you were both on port but you were leeward and racing. But that seems unlikely if you presented your beam to him after he turned downwind. So you get tossed for not staying clear while spinning. He gets tossed for not avoiding contact with damage.

Shake hands any pay your deductibles.

Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse.

Last edited by jackdaw; 06-06-2016 at 03:38 PM.
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post #22 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

The "give way" status for a boat owing penalty turns only applies while actually doing the turns. While it is unclear from the description, it sounds to me like the white boat was not doing the penalty turns at the time of the accident, and that the red boat was an overtaking boat. As the racing rules vary from this nav reg rule, we need more information to understand what the protest committee may have to say about fault . If there were no protest hearing that found fault for this incident, then I assume the insurance companies will handle that decision between them. - my guess then is the red overtaking boat to be 100% at fault per Rule 13 of the nav rules.

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Last edited by sailingfool; 06-07-2016 at 12:40 PM.
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post #23 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

Whose fault this is will only be relevant if one of the boats does not have hull insurance and is motivated to try to get the other to pay. Or, one boat wants the other to pay their deductible.

In my experience, racing deductibles are higher than ordinary and exclude some damage, if you're covered at all.


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post #24 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

In a previous life I drove street cars on the Racetrack and the one protection from Loss of coverage (or so it was said) in the event of a mishap was the events were not being timed. Driver Education (DE) was the advertisement and pretext, of course most (all?) Insurers would at least question their obligation when it was discovered you were on a closed course designed for racing activities.
My observations were; are..
1) If you can't afford a total loss don't do it, there were too many guys out there probably ignoring this but that's their business.
2) The ones who had an incident were basically not heard from again.
3) Everybody privately checked the details of their policy to asses risk sooner or later.

My understanding in Sailing is you're (I'm) covered no matter what. At least that's the answer I got last time I asked but its been a while. You have to disclose the particulars even if you're vague at first, questions will be asked. I don't know if there is a distinction between the casual racer, beer can Regattas if you will and other events. As far as I'm concerned their all the same. No beer till the horn goes off. If I had to layout some cash to protect my Insurance I would do it gladly but there's always a point where that's not practical.
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post #25 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

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Whose fault this is will only be relevant if one of the boats does not have hull insurance and is motivated to try to get the other to pay. Or, one boat wants the other to pay their deductible.

In my experience, racing deductibles are higher than ordinary and exclude some damage, if you're covered at all.
Fault may matter both to the amount of your deductible and to the value of a no-loss insurance record. Unless there's a protest committee finding that's different, given what info is provided if I were the owner of the white boat I would be looking to the red boat's insurance company to fully compensate me for necessary repairs, done by a good yard.

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post #26 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

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The "give way" status for a boat owing penalty turns only applies while actually doing the turns. While it is unclear from the description, it sounds to me like the white boat was not doing the penalty turns at the time of the accident, and that the red boat was an overtaking boat. As the racing rules vary from this nav reg rule, we need more information to understand what the protest committee may have to say about fault . If there were no protest hearing that found fault for this incident, then I assume the insurance companies will handle that decision between them. - my guess then is the red overtaking boat to be 100% at fault per Rule 13 of the nav rules.
There is no such thing as 'give way' in racing. The notion you are thinking of is 'stay clear', and that means staying clear of any ROW boat as they maneuver for tactical advantage. The difference is not small. If I am ROW and we are racing, I expect you will do so. And will expect that up until the VERY last moment before I take action to avoid contact. AFAICT, this is red's ONLY foul, assuming that white was in the act of spinning to exonerate her contact with the mark.

There is a no way this is a overtaking situation... To be overtaking you have to be CLEAR ASTERN. And no way you hit a boat on its beam when clear astern. This was an overlap situation.

Like I said, if that was the deal and there was a protest (filed?????) then both are tossed.

Pay your deductibles and shake hands.

Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse.
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post #27 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

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Originally Posted by jackdaw View Post
There is no such thing as 'give way' in racing. The notion you are thinking of is 'stay clear', and that means staying clear of any ROW boat as they maneuver for tactical advantage. The difference is not small. If I am ROW and we are racing, I expect you will do so. And will expect that up until the VERY last moment before I take action to avoid contact. AFAICT, this is red's ONLY foul, assuming that white was in the act of spinning to exonerate her contact with the mark.

There is a no way this is a overtaking situation... To be overtaking you have to be CLEAR ASTERN. And no way you hit a boat on its beam when clear astern. This was an overlap situation.

Like I said, if that was the deal and there was a protest (filed?????) then both are tossed.

Pay your deductibles and shake hands.
As to evaluation of the the RACING situation, whether the white boat was attempting its penalty turns certainly is a key fact, one David apparently cant clarify. Could a skipper be attempting a circle without the crew being told...?

As to fault certainly any determination by the protest committee resolves that question and their findings would be generally followed by the insurance companies. See Who Pays When There Are Damages? | Sailing World.

If no one filed a protest, then perhaps both parties intuitively agreed with your resolution reflecting a recognition of shared fault, and that's the way it'll play out. But if the white boat was not yet attempting its penalty circles, rather being haplessly out of control, then I still think all fault would belong to red.

Given no protest I suspect the question of fault is moot, as I could not see insurance companies attempting to replicate what might have occurred in a protest hearing.

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post #28 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

"Pay your deductibles and shake hands." Pretty much the attitude of my insurance company, they seem to take no interest at all in instigating investigations of fault.
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post #29 of 32 Old 06-07-2016
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Re: Racing season over

Had any spinnaker sailing been involved with this or was it all "white sail" racing david?
Things can head south pretty quickly in 15 knots with a spinnaker.

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post #30 of 32 Old 06-07-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Racing season over

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Had any spinnaker sailing been involved with this or was it all "white sail" racing david?
Things can head south pretty quickly in 15 knots with a spinnaker.
We are not spin class.

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