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post #21 of 52 Old 08-03-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

LazerI agree with you. I intentially avoided mentioning the "bones" of the vessel as we have one school of thought that Cat A addresses these and another (I think more pragmatic) which thinks it does not.

Here we enter the realm of opinion. When someone like you or Bob or RichH or Jeff or Coles or Jimmy or many others speak to what makes good "bones" I pay attention. Perhaps I accept their opinion about a certain feature Perhaps I don't.

You speak to small rapidly draining cockpit. There is much merit in that traditional teaching. It is true. But it's also true the key feature is rapid drainage. Open boats achieve this another way. My boat is half and half. Even with storm boards blocking the upper portion of the walk through stern massive drainage occurs and there's two large scuppers forward. The volume of the pit is moderate. From EXPERIENCE I know even when filled it clears in a few seconds. I'm not dependent on a rating for this. Hunters and the big three also clear rapidly. Would be surprised if Bob's CF cutters don't have big badass scuppers.

I'm sure when you do your walk through before leaving you look at the "bones". I think you're concerned about things you can't see. Folks have argued about liners and adhesives. The engineering is there to support their use. The history is there to demonstrate their effectiveness. Still they remain a source of concern for some. Just not being able to see what's going on or has gone on below the liner causes disquietude. Not necessarily rational if you trust the engineering, boat building worker, and reported history of the boat.

What people seem to repetitively forget is you are not sailing on -insert brand-or even -insert model and year-but you are sailing on s/v -insert name-.

Would I sail an SDR on a Hunter. Sure, you bet. But I'd take a long hard look at her. BTW I'd poke around a Morris before leaving as well. The extent and nature of survey would be different but view that as just common sense.

Still don't understand why there's blow back on this. As beautifully stated by Noelex you make up your own mind.
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post #22 of 52 Old 08-04-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

There is no philosophy, especially political, that sums up the CE rating. It was simply a construction standard that was negotiated among several European countries, so that no one country would disadvantage the others, by building cheaper. It bluntly has nothing to do with an absolute measurement of safety, rather just a relative measure to other CE ratings, or for that matter, failing to be rated at all.

Go read the description of Cat A ratings for boats. I'm not going to try to find it again. Its nebulous at best, but the conditions it says it's designed for are pretty tame "ocean" conditions.

Final point of evidence. I just walked up to the cockpit to remind myself of my vessels ratings. Cat A says 11 occupants. Cat C says 16. WTF does that mean? She's been rated to cross an ocean, survive those defined ocean conditions with 11 people aboard? I don't physically know where I would put them all in bad conditions.

It's simply a negotiated trade deal. Ignore it for safety measurement.
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post #23 of 52 Old 08-04-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
N- that's one hell of a boat. Very well thought out and an excellent demonstration of multiple features of a truly offshore ready cruiser. One notes the multiple details not included in CE A that make this so. Folks should go to your listing even if they have no interest in purchase to understand the wisdom of your post here.
Thanks. It is a great yacht.
It was designed for a couple to circumnavigate so it is a serious blue water cruiser.

Formally noelex77, but I cannot access that account.
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post #24 of 52 Old 08-04-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

I really don't understand the dispute. CE ratings involve a minimum standard of design, stability, and construction quality. It is fundamentally a bare minimum standard not any type of certification for offshore work.

But if you are really headed off shore then you probably want to take serious the recomendations in ISAF Cat 0. Which is where the real meat and potatoes of making a vessel sutable for offshore extended cruising can be found. If island hopping the Carribean, then maybe Cat 1 or 2.

But even these are just minimum standards, they are supposed to be the very minimum to keep you safe, not a ceiling to hit and walk away.

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post #25 of 52 Old 08-04-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

There is only one person on here who repeatedly cites the Cat A as some sort of reasonable standard. One of our late colleagues beautifully put that to rest, and likely would again if he could. See Minne and Stumble's posts as to why, with slightly less eloquence and certainly less photography.
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post #26 of 52 Old 08-05-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Usually I steer clear of these Flat Earth Society Circle Jerks, which this thread definitely is, but I generally agree with Stumble and think he did a pretty good job of summing things up.

The only quibble I have with his language is the bold part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I really don't understand the dispute. CE ratings involve a minimum standard of design, stability, and construction quality. It is fundamentally a bare minimum standard not any type of certification for offshore work.

But if you are really headed off shore then you probably want to take serious the recomendations in ISAF Cat 0. Which is where the real meat and potatoes of making a vessel sutable for offshore extended cruising can be found. If island hopping the Carribean, then maybe Cat 1 or 2.

But even these are just minimum standards, they are supposed to be the very minimum to keep you safe, not a ceiling to hit and walk away.
This is incorrect. The CE RCD is a certification (that the boat meets the "essential safety requirements" specifically listed). This is the language concerning the Cat A standard:

Quote:
ESSENTIAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION OF RECREATIONAL CRAFT

1. BOAT DESIGN CATEGORIES

Definitions:

A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
These boats are certified for the above conditions (which are certainly not on shore and cover what most any prudent cruising sailor will ever see offshore). Pure and simple.

Now, what you guys personally do with that is your business. If you instead insist on a boat that is "certified" for F11 and 20m waves, knock yourselves out finding that boat (I'll be interested in what exactly that boat is). But this CE certification/standard is what it is, very clearly stated. And ill informed whining and BS won't change it - no matter how much you try.

Does this CE certification "guarantee" safety and zero mistakes across all brands and all boats for all time? Well only an idiot would expect so. But that's precisely why I like Stumble's comparison to the ISAF regs (of which I'm a big fan). Those are far more robust and specific requirements than the CE standard, but also provide no "guarantee" or "maximum preparedness level" of safety. It's a baseline - and you personally make decisions from there as to if and/or how far you want to exceed them.

So, for those that don't feel the strange need to continually wallow in ignorance for some reason, here are some good resources that you can check out for first-hand information from those who actually know something:

https://www.nmma.org/certification/ce-certification
(This is a US-based organization heavily involved with CE certifications for US builders/manufactuers. In other words, no room for the Euro-Political BS.)

https://www.imci.org/index.php?nav=112&pageId=86
These guys are the gatekeepers of the CE marine certification protocols and process.

Apart from that...jerk on fellas.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-06-2016 at 01:52 PM.
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post #27 of 52 Old 08-05-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Smack,

Fair point, the CE is absolutely a certification, and I misspoke when I indicated it was not.

My issue with the CE ratings though deal with the nuts and bolts of it. To get a CE A rating hull fittings for instance must be expected to last 5 years. I find this grotesquely minimal for any boat that isn't expected to live on the trailer, and it has let to most builders switching to brass instead of bronze ball valves and fittings. While brass can reasonably be expected to last for 5 years, good bronze can last 5 decades for a minimal increase in cost.

The wave height standard I am actually ok with, but to cut the threshold at 40kn of breeze? I me that is far below what I expect of a cruising boat. Admittedly this is 40 sustained not 40 gusts but still. This leads to undersized deck hardware, winches not really up to the task, furling gear that has difficulty in working at these high wind speeds. It really is below what I think of as an acceptable minimal. I would put the wind speed requirement at around 60kn sustained, still below hurricane strength, but equal to a South Pacific three day frontal system.


For those who are not aware, ISAF Catagories are broken down by type of boat (monohull vs multihull), then by the degree of preparedness necessary. Cat 0 is the most extensive and requires full self sufficiency for extended periods of time when the air temprature can be expected to be below 41F. Cat 1 is similar but in warmer weather and without quite as much self sufficiency. Cat 2 is coastal racing in near proximity to land.

You can find the detailed requirements for all the catagories Offshore Special Regs Index : Offshore Special Regs | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website

Edit to add: my guess only about 10% of all cruising boats even meet the requirements for Cat 4 (inshore day sailing). The major culprit is and has been for years the use of vinyl coated lifelines that have been prohibited for decades due to the risk of corrosion underneath the coating.

Greg

Last edited by Stumble; 08-05-2016 at 07:14 PM.
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post #28 of 52 Old 08-05-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Thanks for your reasoned response Stumble. Replies below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
My issue with the CE ratings though deal with the nuts and bolts of it. To get a CE A rating hull fittings for instance must be expected to last 5 years. I find this grotesquely minimal for any boat that isn't expected to live on the trailer, and it has let to most builders switching to brass instead of bronze ball valves and fittings. While brass can reasonably be expected to last for 5 years, good bronze can last 5 decades for a minimal increase in cost.
THIS is the rub. And I've mentioned it many times in these discussions: "shelf life". The newer boats, judging by all of this, are fit for purpose - BUT THEY DO NOT have the "shelf life" of older boats. And people need to understand this. The future used boat market, even with traditional "blue water" brands, will radically change because of it.

What is the "new shelf life"? Who knows? But people won't be restoring BeneJeneBavaHunterLinas for major ocean crossings in 40 years. The bones just aren't there. And that's simply the trade-off...these boats aren't built for that.

BUT I maintain, that's not a bad trade-off if newer boats are affordable now and people are buying and sailing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The wave height standard I am actually ok with, but to cut the threshold at 40kn of breeze? I me that is far below what I expect of a cruising boat. Admittedly this is 40 sustained not 40 gusts but still. This leads to undersized deck hardware, winches not really up to the task, furling gear that has difficulty in working at these high wind speeds. It really is below what I think of as an acceptable minimal. I would put the wind speed requirement at around 60kn sustained, still below hurricane strength, but equal to a South Pacific three day frontal system.
Again, you're missing a critical word in that standard..."exceed". That is not a threshold. That is an open door to something beyond F8 and 4m. So what is the limit of that excess? Well, as an attorney, you know the answer to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
For those who are not aware, ISAF Catagories are broken down by type of boat (monohull vs multihull), then by the degree of preparedness necessary. Cat 0 is the most extensive and requires full self sufficiency for extended periods of time when the air temprature can be expected to be below 41F. Cat 1 is similar but in warmer weather and without quite as much self sufficiency. Cat 2 is coastal racing in near proximity to land.

...

Edit to add: my guess only about 10% of all cruising boats even meet the requirements for Cat 4 (inshore day sailing). The major culprit is and has been for years the use of vinyl coated lifelines that have been prohibited for decades due to the risk of corrosion underneath the coating
I've generally tried to follow Cat 1 regs for prep of our Hunter. But even then, I don't follow all of them (e.g. - I have a liferaft and an emergency steering system, but I don't quite meet STIX requirements, I think my AVS is a bit below 130, and I still have coated lifelines...etc).

But you're right. Many, many boats out there do not follow these regs even in the slightest. They should.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-06-2016 at 01:53 PM.
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post #29 of 52 Old 08-06-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Quote:
A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
This couldn't be written more ridiculously. If it means anything to anyone, other than a production standard, knock yourself out.

"Extended periods"..... How extended?

"May exceed"...... By what? If I have to guess, the standard is of no help.

"Beaufort 8 and 4m" is 34-40kts and 13ft...... The Beaufort scale itself defines force 8 as having 18-25ft seas, so how did CE knock them down? Are they saying it can take high winds, with unusually low seas? Or is it just a BS backdoor way of excluding real life conditions?

"Excluding abnormal conditions"..... Exactly how are these certain to be avoided on an ocean passage of more than a couple of days.

Listen, I'm not saying Cat A rated vessels can't safely make an ocean passage, only that the rating tells you nothing. It's only a unified construction standard.

See how I made my point, without name calling?
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post #30 of 52 Old 08-06-2016
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Re: Sailboat "CE" ratings.....

Problem I have with the EU system mostly lies with how it is interpreted by potential boat buyers and users.

ABYC is a building standard as is Llyods or Nors. Today replacing a domestic water pressure pump. I look look at ABYC or other standards and have a cue about what's the floor for good practice. I can read Nigel and get further advice. I've already talked with yard workers and fellow Outbound owners for further info. I'll use 12 g tinned wire with shrink wrap terminals. Unit is tied into my grounding system and done as to not have its load vary voltage to my instruments. Its service life should be excellent as it comes from a good vendor (Flojet). CE is not helpful. You can put lousy stuff with short useful service life in a boat with suboptimal installation and meet CE.

As a use standard CEs also of very limited value. Although I no longer race when prepping my boat for passage I look to the host of published lists. These have been generated by end users. Racers, experienced cruisers, and voyagers. Here there is variance based on personal past experience so many decisions are based on opinion. I've had delamination in cored boats so went with solid glass, I've had in a mast furler jam so went with old school slab jiffy reefing, over rides on in boom are problematic. Have had to refit keel bolts so went with internal. This is opinion. Folks circle the globe on Amels with in mast. Most long range cruisers bigger than me have leisure furl. We can argue endlessly about what makes a good BWB but that's opinion. What's not opinion is AVS and like statistics. Or presence or absence pumps in cockpit and down below or strength of structural elements. Here the race lists are quite helpful.

I stick to my orginal statement Smack. Using Cat A to endorse a boat is faint praise.

Yes it's absence may influence a buyer or prospective crew but its presence is insufficient evidence of anything meaningful. Think of a 10 y.o. Cat A boat of your choosing. What does this mean you? Think of a Cat A boat just returned from a couple of years of hard ocean cruising. Does the certificate mean anything?

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