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post #41 of 61 Old 08-22-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

Never used a swivel . Don't want anything in the anchor rode line with a weaker point than my line or links of chain

Others I have talked to it becomes a weak point.

The Rocna turns and pivots when it is in the air before it hits the anchor roller and the bail so that takes any twist out, though I've never seen a real twist


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post #42 of 61 Old 08-22-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
That's exactly what I had in mind. The float is a nice touch because it keeps the line out of the mud. Then I could wrap the trip line around the windlass drum if I need mechanical assist for hauling in the chain.

Any other negatives to this arrangement?

Also a question about your 5/8" shackle. Is that a free-rotating shackle? My anchor currently has one, and my surveyor told me to remove it because it is a common point of failure. Is twisting a problem if you don't have it?

I like the picture, but this is a tripping line, not a recovery line. It will bring the anchor up backwards is snagged. A recovery line is attached to the anchor shackle and is used to bring the anchor right into the roller using a winch. Commonly used with in-line tandems (there is no other practical way, unless you want to reach over the pulpit and grab the chain while the boat is bucking), after the primary is secured, the recovery line is detached from the chain, fed through the other roller, and led to a windlass or winch.

Is this needed for most single anchors? No, not unless you have back trouble. If so, it is quite nice. However, a windlass and all-chain rode is a better solution. This is the bargain solution, or a work-around for a charter boat.

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post #43 of 61 Old 08-22-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
I like the picture, but this is a tripping line, not a recovery line....
As I said, I'm not going to have one, so what it's called is moot from my perspective. i was just using the terminology in eherlihy's post and picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
...However, a windlass and all-chain rode is a better solution. This is the bargain solution, or a work-around for a charter boat.
In a world of infinite time, money, locker size, and weight capacity, chain is always better. But in the real world everything is a compromise. My windlass will not accommodate all-chain, as I already explained. I am going to use the windlass that my boat came with until my anchoring practices call for an upgrade, so I will have nylon twist rode with chain end, which every reference I have seen will be adequate for my needs on a boat this size.

Let's not go around in circles with this argument.

After reading some more threads and other websites, I will remove the swivel. After what I have read, I suspect the PO put the swivel there to allow the anchor to turn right-side-up when it comes out of the water (because with rope rode the chain has a 75% chance of bringing the anchor up with the wrong attitude). I will overcome this issue by marking my chain near the chain-rope connection to orient properly as it comes through the roller, so when the anchor appears from underwater I will know it will have the right attitude as soon as the chain starts through the roller. If the shackle comes through with the wrong orientation, I'll lower it, allow it to rotate, and bring it through the roller again with the right orientation.

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post #44 of 61 Old 08-22-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
My windlass will not accommodate all-chain, as I already explained.
Go to your windlass manufacturer. You may find a replacement rope-chain gypsy, or a longer spindle and a chain gypsy under your capstan is within reach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I suspect the PO put the swivel there to allow the anchor to turn right-side-up when it comes out of the water (because with rope rode the chain has a 75% chance of bringing the anchor up with the wrong attitude).
This shouldn't be hard. Most plow or spoon anchors will right themselves if you don't pull them into the roller too fast. If you have the sort of roller with a groove try replacing it with one that doesn't have a groove.

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post #45 of 61 Old 08-22-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Go to your windlass manufacturer. You may find a replacement rope-chain gypsy, or a longer spindle and a chain gypsy under your capstan is within reach..
I will re-check this yet again, but when I searched it before the Catalina 34 and 320 message boards were filled with posts from people who said a drum switch was not possible and a full replacement of windlass was the only option. That's why I haven't bothered to check further. I don't know what brand and model windlass I have, but it may be a matter of a product discontinuation.

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...This shouldn't be hard. Most plow or spoon anchors will right themselves if you don't pull them into the roller too fast. If you have the sort of roller with a groove try replacing it with one that doesn't have a groove.
The current anchor is a Fortress, so I guess it's a 50% chance instead of a 75% chance. I don't have enough experience with that anchor to know if it tends to right itself - I assume that the flukes would fall to a bottom-heavy position and it would right itself, but that anchor will become a secondary one anyway.

The grooved roller is the cause of the problem, and getting an ungrooved one could be a good fix. I'll keep that in mind.

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post #46 of 61 Old 08-22-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

Do you have a washdown? The time it takes to get Chesapeake mud off the chain and anchor also helps avoid the problem. *grin*

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post #47 of 61 Old 08-22-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

Already answered this. Another reason why I don't want to go all chain:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Thanks everyone for all the advice, even though I sense some cognitive dissonance between your suggestions. It's clear that the optimum choice depends on where you sail/anchor, how often you anchor, your options and willingness to head for a marina or mooring ball in foul weather, etc.

We're not going to be heading out for weeks at a time. Mostly weekends and occasional full week in the upper Bay where there are lots of non-anchoring options if conditions look bad. My wife (and I) are very cautious about conditions, so will avoid forecasted storms. Of course, there's also the possibility of stuff that pops up without a forecast.



This is correct - strictly in the muddy Chesapeake. I learned about the huge gobs of stinky stuff the hard way, and learned to appreciate the ease of handling rope rode in appropriate conditions. About a year ago we were in Eastern Bay returning from St. Michaels to Galesville in the Mason 44 my friend had lent me. A fast moving thunderstorm was heading across the Bay from the west, so after making radio contact with a couple other boats who had local knowledge we followed them and ducked in behind Kent Point off of Romancoke. The storm appeared to be coming in fast so we had to drop the hook without taking a lot of time to find a shallow spot. We were in 24' of water, so had to put out 200' of chain. As fate would have it, the storm broke up and never blew us at all. Not even a puff of wind. This meant that about 170' of chain was sitting on the mud bottom the whole time. It took us over an hour to hose off the whole chain as it came in, about 5' at a time (in other words, pull in a freeboard length, stop, hose down that section, pull in another freeboard length, etc.).

Not only does my new boat not have a chain gypsy, but it does not have a washdown system either, which is an absolute must for all-chain. So that that further adds to the complexity of switching to all chain. With a short chain and rope, washing down with a bucket or with my portable washdown pump is sufficient.

https://youtu.be/dvZSW6J7JaU


I anchored out in my last boat only a few times - less than expected. With this boat I will anchor more, but still not nearly as much as many of you do, and I will likely be more selective about conditions. So I will not switch to all-chain unless my usage patterns change from what I anticipate.

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post #48 of 61 Old 08-22-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Already answered this. Another reason why I don't want to go all chain:
Sorry - I didn't remember. I don't take notes. *grin* I really do try to keep up. Both the bucket and the portable washdown can be effective but sometimes the Chesapeake mud really gets ahead of you. Getting it off the chain and rope, while inconvenient, is better than having to clean out the anchor locker.

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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Sorry - I didn't remember. I don't take notes. *grin* I really do try to keep up. Both the bucket and the portable washdown can be effective but sometimes the Chesapeake mud really gets ahead of you. Getting it off the chain and rope, while inconvenient, is better than having to clean out the anchor locker.
No problem, I really do appreciate your advice. I can't even remember what I wrote much of the time, so I can't expect you to remember what I wrote.

Speaking of forgetting what I wrote, here's a swivel debate that I had totally forgotten about. I even participated in it! Rereading it today "sealed the deal" that I don't want anything to do with a swivel in my ground tackle:

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruisi...a-nay-how.html

FYI, I ordered a Mantus today. Any of the three would have been fine, but I got a good deal. Also, the videos by Steve Goodman showed the Mantus to be just a little better than Rocna or Manson Supreme at maintaining a set when jerked 180 degrees with low scope (2.2-2.8). Since my rope rode will result in poor catenary, this difference in performance could be more important for me than for others who have all chain. So that tipped the balance to Mantus for me, even if only slightly.

Now it's time to go look and see why everyone says my windlass can't be converted to gypsy.

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Last edited by TakeFive; 08-22-2016 at 11:41 PM.
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post #50 of 61 Old 08-23-2016
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Re: Windlass technique: use messenger/snubber line with chain?

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Now it's time to go look and see why everyone says my windlass can't be converted to gypsy.
Keep us in the loop. I love coming up with creative ways to overcome "can't."

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