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post #21 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

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Originally Posted by ggray View Post
I've jibed both ways, and to me trimming the sheet first, jibing, the moving the traveler last (quickly as possible) is easier and more gentle than centering the traveler first. But I likely have a much longer traveler.

But I'm not sure Drew is implying either technique. The traveler lines absorb shock either way.
It sounds like like you are suggesting that you gybe the boat, then ease the traveler to its new setting to leeward? To do so means when you set your traveler position, you are securing both the windward and leeward traveler control lines - otherwise the gybe would slam the traveler down. Do you really do this - setting both means when you TACK the boat your traveler is locked to windward until you adjust both lines to bring it to the new leeward side? Hard to understand tacking with such inconvenience versus simply allowing the wind to move the traveler between the pre-set leeward positions.

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post #22 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

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Originally Posted by ggray View Post
I've jibed both ways, and to me trimming the sheet first, jibing, the moving the traveler last (quickly as possible) is easier and more gentle than centering the traveler first. But I likely have a much longer traveler.

But I'm not sure Drew is implying either technique. The traveler lines absorb shock either way.
In a breeze, center the traveler and control the boom with the mainsheet. You may want to ease the traveler quickly to limit rounding up.

Yes, you can let it slam across if you like. I don't.

Note that the traveler line will not absorb impact if you let it run to the stops. You would have to keep it 4 inches off the stops, which is also an extra step. Or you can let it slam.

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post #23 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
I agree a traveller is much easier to work with short-handed than a double block. I am not clear on why it's a better shock absorber. Could you expand on the physics of this?

I was recently touring General George S Patton's former yacht, "When and If" it had a very cool, no traveller system that in addition to the blocks actually had a large spring/shock absorber.
The reason is that stretch is more tolerable in a traveler than in a sheet.

The sheet must be relatively low stretch (polyester) or in a breeze it is like trimming a rubberband. This is particularly true on winched sheets that are led to the mast and back to the cockpit (extra length = stretch). The top keeps twisting off, and if you tighten for the puffs, the leach hooks in the lulls. A traveler tackle, on the other hand, can be rigged in high stretch material, like nylon since they are typically hand tensioned, and even if winched are lightly loaded. If they do stretch in a puff, the traveller mealy sags a few inches to leeward, without affecting sail shape. In a crash jibe it stretches farther. I tried a spectra traveler line a few years ago (I was given the line), it was like jibing against a brick, and I removed in a few weeks. I replaced it with nylon climbing rope, and it is very nice. Several well-established riggers are beginning to recommend nylon for traveller line.

I'm sure there are other answers. What you don't want to do is use high modulus line for both traveler and mainsheet. BAM.

I am currently testing a mainsheet shock absorber for an up-coming article. It works, but so far I think I like the nylon traveler line better.

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Very concise explanation, thank you.

I am thinking not every traveller is set up like this. I often see very small low stretch lines on travellers.

On my beach cat, the factory traveller set up actually has my my sheet controlling the traveller.

The set up you describe sounds very good.
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post #24 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

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Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
It sounds like like you are suggesting that you gybe the boat, then ease the traveler to its new setting to leeward? To do so means when you set your traveler position, you are securing both the windward and leeward traveler control lines - otherwise the gybe would slam the traveler down. Do you really do this - setting both means when you TACK the boat your traveler is locked to windward until you adjust both lines to bring it to the new leeward side? Hard to understand tacking with such inconvenience versus simply allowing the wind to move the traveler between the pre-set leeward positions.
I lock down both sides of the traveler for tacks. Because I've generally got the traveler to windward before the tack when heading upwind (to get the boom close to center, and some twist). So I tack through, if I've got crew we'll move the traveler up during the tack. If I'm by myself I'll move the traveler up after I get the headsail trimmed kinda close. If I don't, the boat'll round up and crazy Ivan that Otto can't compensate for.

Gybes? I always try to move the traveler/mainsheet over as gently as possible. I'll generally have it locked both sides and ease it during the gybe (tighten sheet, move traveler, ease sheet) - I don't like slamming either the traveler or the mainsheet. I leave the vang on during a gybe. Typical socal light air allows me to focus on the main for the gybe and handle the headsail second.

(Or chicken gybe if necessary)

My boat came with a twin mainsheet/preventer sort of thing rigged along with the useless curved Catalina traveler. It was terrible. Sent some $$$ at Garhaurer and it's so much better.
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

Another lesser known reason to use the traveller; it reduces the need to ease the main sheet. This is specific to boats with no backstay (most cats and some newer monos). My cat, for example, has no backstay, allowing for a lot of mainsail roach, but compromising forestay tension. All beach cat racers should know this. While you may consider it a racer's subtlty, it is a signifigant factor, and we are all racers when going to windward, if we are any kind of sailor. OFf the wind we kick back!

(the full explanation)
Sail Delmarva: Driving to Windward...

"No Back Stay. This means that the forestay cannot be kept tight unless you want to turn your boat into a banana and over stress the shrouds. Although swept back, they are only designed for the side force and a trace of forward pull. Real tension on the forestay comes from mainsheet tension.

Why must the forestay stay tight? Sag allows the genoa to become more full, since a sagging forestay has the effect of injecting more sailcloth into the sail. The draft moves aft, the slot is pinched, drag increases, and lift does not. This is OK off the wind, but not to windward, since heeling and leeway (sideslip) increase, which also increases drag. Going to windward is about lift:drag, not just power.

How do you keep from easing the mainsheet in strong winds? Ease the traveler a little, being certain to keep the main outhaul tight (a full main pinches the slot). Reef; it's better to keep a smaller sail tight than a larger sail loose. You will see monos with the main twisted off in a blow. Ignor them, they are not cats. Use the traveler instead. It is also physically much easier to play the traveler than the main sheet."
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post #26 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Pdqaltair, I am new to beachcat racing, only having picked up my boat on Saturday, but am a long time traditional rig monohull sailor.

If I'm reading this last point correctly, I should be dumping wind using the traveller rather than the mainsheet to stay on my feet/stay flat. Am I reading this correctly?
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Pdqaltair, I am new to beachcat racing, only having picked up my boat on Saturday, but am a long time traditional rig monohull sailor.

If I'm reading this last point correctly, I should be dumping wind using the traveller rather than the mainsheet to stay on my feet/stay flat. Am I reading this correctly?
Obviously this depends on the situation (the mainsheet dumps faster) but it is something to expereiment with. Lower the traveler 6-24 inches for the sustained wind load, and trim for gusts with the mainsheet. This is faster to weather than just easing the mainsheet. In general the jib stays in up wind. I sailed beach cats for years and miss them--pure fun!!

Second, the jib on most beach cats is tiny compared to my 130% genoa. Thus, the effect is less noticeable. It is most noticeable on masthead boats, like mine, that have no backstay. This is obviously one of the reasons most no-backstay boats are fractionally rigged.
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post #28 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Another lesser known reason to use the traveller; it reduces the need to ease the main sheet. This is specific to boats with no backstay (most cats and some newer monos). My cat, for example, has no backstay, allowing for a lot of mainsail roach, but compromising forestay tension. All beach cat racers should know this. While you may consider it a racer's subtlty, it is a signifigant factor, and we are all racers when going to windward, if we are any kind of sailor. OFf the wind we kick back!

(the full explanation)
Sail Delmarva: Driving to Windward...

"No Back Stay. This means that the forestay cannot be kept tight unless you want to turn your boat into a banana and over stress the shrouds. Although swept back, they are only designed for the side force and a trace of forward pull. Real tension on the forestay comes from mainsheet tension.

Why must the forestay stay tight? Sag allows the genoa to become more full, since a sagging forestay has the effect of injecting more sailcloth into the sail. The draft moves aft, the slot is pinched, drag increases, and lift does not. This is OK off the wind, but not to windward, since heeling and leeway (sideslip) increase, which also increases drag. Going to windward is about lift:drag, not just power.

How do you keep from easing the mainsheet in strong winds? Ease the traveler a little, being certain to keep the main outhaul tight (a full main pinches the slot). Reef; it's better to keep a smaller sail tight than a larger sail loose. You will see monos with the main twisted off in a blow. Ignor them, they are not cats. Use the traveler instead. It is also physically much easier to play the traveler than the main sheet."
I trim mostly with the traveler. the boat has a very long traveler but very under sized control blocks (29 mm is to small ) and large line which added to much fiction to the system. I changed the line to a smaller size with some old 6 mm Sta Set just so we could sail the boat. Now i will be upsizing the blocks so I can use an 8mm line and reduce the friction in the system. I am considering the climbing rope as it seem that the stretch might make the traveler system work like a auto trim in small gusts. easy to try but not being a climber it has been hard to determine which line. Are there some types that will have to much stretch? I need a line that does not twist up when running in the control blocks and does not hockle.
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Re: "Only race boats need a traveler"...

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Pdqaltair, I am new to beachcat racing, only having picked up my boat on Saturday, but am a long time traditional rig monohull sailor.

If I'm reading this last point correctly, I should be dumping wind using the traveller rather than the mainsheet to stay on my feet/stay flat. Am I reading this correctly?
What this dumping the main? you hike harder. on a Prindle you will trim with the main and traveler all in until the wind can not be controlled with full double trap and then lower the traveler as required. the traveler is not set up to use for quick trim. we always race with the crew doing both jib and main trimming of the sheets and the skipper working the helm and traveler. upwind the jib sheet is cleated and the crew can work the mainsheet and can use his leg power to help pull on the mainsheet.
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post #30 of 55 Old 09-27-2016
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Thanks for all these tips.

My sailing partner and I are completely clueless with these types of boats. We each own traditionally rigged full keel cruising monos

The little Prindle schooled us on Sunday. It was crazy fast, but we were pretty shocked to learn we couldn't even tack it with the skills we knew.

I think I might be a cat convert though.
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