Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing" - Page 11 - SailNet Community
 83Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #101 of 110 Old 08-25-2017
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 2,953
Thanks: 2
Thanked 79 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Don't know if it was Sun Tzu but some Eastern Philosopher said "if you want peace, prepare for war." If you don't believe that is true I've got a bridge in NYC you really need to buy.

...
Irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the nation should not be able to defend itself against attack or invasion...

Proxy wars were about sphere of influence and access to resources to plunder.

I suggest countries that need what they don't have.... buy it.... not take it.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #102 of 110 Old 08-25-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Bahamas
Posts: 3,233
Thanks: 3
Thanked 123 Times in 121 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

This class is now about taking things out of context.
RichH likes this.
RegisteredUser is online now  
post #103 of 110 Old 08-25-2017
Member
 
OldEagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 120
Thanks: 27
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Returning to the original topic: While I'm generally no fan of NPR, this report seems spot on:
Navy Navigation Errors May Have Killed More Troops Than Afghanistan So Far in 2017 : NPR
OldEagle is offline  
 
post #104 of 110 Old 08-25-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 919
Thanks: 80
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

There is a book about training deaths in Nebraska for the Army Air Force during WWII that is very interesting. I think more people died in training than in aerial combat in WWII but that does not sell as well for the survivors. I am somewhat incredulous that Troy believes the government is infallible. Since humans are a faulty species you can extrapolate that a group made up of humans is also not infallible. I think there is indeed a problem with the US Navy in that highly maneuverable ships are rammed by slow unmaneuverable ships. I don't know the answer but I do think there are legitimate reasons to question the ever changing "official" line....
RichH and SanderO like this.
Rocky Mountain Breeze is offline  
post #105 of 110 Old 08-26-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 19,240
Thanks: 82
Thanked 541 Times in 518 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldEagle View Post
Returning to the original topic: While I'm generally no fan of NPR, this report seems spot on:
Navy Navigation Errors May Have Killed More Troops Than Afghanistan So Far in 2017 : NPR
Thanks for sharing this. However, like every article and discussion I've read on this topic, this one also lacks any actual facts over what happened, other than the outcome.

However, that hasn't stopped some from drawing a conclusion.

As for the title, literally more people died riding their bicycle last month (avg is 2/day) than died n Afghanistan so far this year. The title was simply dramatic.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #106 of 110 Old 08-26-2017
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 31
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Some times I think even so called fake news is perfectly innocent.

For example, there is some difficulty interpreting the replay posted on Gcaptain. The video does not have a time scale or a zoom scale listed (at least not that I can see) but the time and zoom have been manipulated, not for nefarious reasons, but just to make the video easier to watch. This distortion could appear to be misleading, but I don't think that was the intent.

It seems to make sense the collision occurred at around second 51 of the video. Some folks make the assumption that the collision occurred around second 56, but if you watch closely, it makes more sense that that is infact the time that the tanker separated from the other vessel and put on dead slow revs to exit the channel to assess the damage.

This second 56 interpretation gives the impression that something nefarious occurred and we get rumours of spoofing, steering failure and radio controlled attacks.

It's not fake news, it's just challenges in interpretation with limited facts. This happened with the last ship too. When folks didn't recognise the autopilot correction after the collision- they believed something nefarious had happened, when it hadn't, at least not with regards to the autopilot correction.

It may take years before we get to see the heavily redacted reports from these incidents, in the meantime, we have rumours about spoofing, RC boats and steering failure that will continue to perpetuate with conspiracy theorist long after the real reports are completed.
Yes what some do not realize is how the commercial autopilot systems react not only to course, but speed as well. With the Fritz collision people mistakend the 1st course correction of the ACX Crystal as something that occured well before the collision when in fact it was an AP response to the speed and steering issues presented by having a destroyer impaled on her bow. Many assumed the colleion took place some 20 minutes later after the ACX Crystal had throttled back, turned around, and come back to the collision point. Scarey that because it means the Fritz got nailed by the Crystal when she (Crystal) was in fact still turning 16kts.
NavySnipe is offline  
post #107 of 110 Old 08-26-2017
Member
 
OldEagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 120
Thanks: 27
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
this one also lacks any actual facts over what happened, other than the outcome
I agree with you, in large part:
- the headline is clickbait
- most of the piece is chin-pulling
- there are no new facts about the USS McCain collision
But--there is a nugget of useful information, buried about 2/3 into the article, about the outcomes of the investigation of a different recent mishap, also involving a 7th Fleet ship, the USS Antietam, which ran aground in Tokyo Bay. The cited findings point to the human factors elements I alluded to earlier--training, fatigue, discipline, and command environment.

Try this one--it's better

http://https://arstechnica.com/gadge...hortcomings/2/
OldEagle is offline  
post #108 of 110 Old 08-28-2017
Senior Member
 
troy2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 6,158
Thanks: 9
Thanked 38 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Breeze View Post
There is a book about training deaths in Nebraska for the Army Air Force during WWII that is very interesting. I think more people died in training than in aerial combat in WWII but that does not sell as well for the survivors. I am somewhat incredulous that Troy believes the government is infallible. Since humans are a faulty species you can extrapolate that a group made up of humans is also not infallible. I think there is indeed a problem with the US Navy in that highly maneuverable ships are rammed by slow unmaneuverable ships. I don't know the answer but I do think there are legitimate reasons to question the ever changing "official" line....
Actually, Troy doesn't believe the government is infallible. Troy just doesn't believe the government is one huge pile of overlapping and interwoven conspiracies directed against its own people.... he doesn't blame the feds every time the milk cow runs dry.

The commonsense reaction to 'highly maneuverable ships being rammed by slow unmaneuverable ships' is that it happens because of crew fatigue; or poor training, procedures or discipline; or simply because of a run of bad luck. It takes a special kind of paranoia to believe our own government is creating these incidents for nefarious purposes of its own, or to imagine the steering and engine controls of one of those 'slow unmaneuverable ships' have been suborned to the point their own crews have lost control, and they've somehow become more deadly than our warships.

Try not to let the urgent override the important.
troy2000 is offline  
post #109 of 110 Old 08-28-2017 Thread Starter
Moderator
 
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London!
Posts: 6,009
Thanks: 61
Thanked 274 Times in 247 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Dock
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Breeze View Post
There is a book about training deaths in Nebraska for the Army Air Force during WWII that is very interesting. I think more people died in training than in aerial combat in WWII but that does not sell as well for the survivors..

Well, that stat seems a bit rickerty. so I googled it.

Quote:
Over the course of the war, the US Army Air Forces suffered
over 54,000 accidents in the continental United States. These accidents accounted for over
15,000 fatalities, the equivalent of a World War Two infantry division.

Quote:
(in WW2) 88,119 airmen died in service. 52,173 were battle casualty deaths: 45,520 killed in action, 1,140 died of wounds, 3,603 were missing in action and declared dead, and 1,910 were non-hostile battle deaths.
But on a quick look I could find exact pilot figures.
CVAT likes this.

Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


People can say they want freedom, but offer them the keys to what chains them, a map to where they want to go,
And they'll turn it down for the cell they know
MarkofSeaLife is offline  
post #110 of 110 Old 08-28-2017
Senior Member
 
roverhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Posts: 847
Thanks: 5
Thanked 69 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Breeze View Post
There is a book about training deaths in Nebraska for the Army Air Force during WWII that is very interesting. I think more people died in training than in aerial combat in WWII but that does not sell as well for the survivors. I am somewhat incredulous that Troy believes the government is infallible. Since humans are a faulty species you can extrapolate that a group made up of humans is also not infallible. I think there is indeed a problem with the US Navy in that highly maneuverable ships are rammed by slow unmaneuverable ships. I don't know the answer but I do think there are legitimate reasons to question the ever changing "official" line....
FWIW, there were over 15,000 US flyers killed in 'training' accidents in WWII. Training was quick and intense churning out pilots with limited hours and experience especially early in the war as the size of flying corps, both Army Air and Navy and combat losses. Instrument instruction was minimal and instrumentation in the planes rudimentary so accidentally flying into a cloud or a sudden change in weather could prove fatal. They just found a Navy pilot/plane who flew into the mountainous center of Oahu undoubtedly when it was enshrouded in clouds. The military classifies most non combat flights as training flights so that covers a broad range.
MarkofSeaLife likes this.
roverhi is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Disapointment with Polar Navy Customer "service" tschmidty Electronics 8 06-27-2016 09:41 PM
That's not going to buff out... "collision" mdbee Seamanship & Navigation 6 08-15-2012 07:58 PM
C270 Main Sail "stack Pack", Quick Cover", "lazy Bag" Install randy22556 Catalina 1 02-28-2007 11:53 AM
Quintess Yacht Tragedy - "The Essence" Sinks In Fatal Collision - Helium Report NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-26-2006 01:20 AM
"Discover" Ship Docked at Owensboro (14 WFIE Evansville) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-07-2006 05:19 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome