Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing" - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

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Originally Posted by UglyDuckling View Post
As an ex-navy person, I think that this is nonsense.
Forget being in stealth mode, so others can't electronically see you. The freighter was obviously not at fault. It's like a huge turtle running over a dysfunctional and totally disabled rabbit.
What about one's command responsibility to see others? Could all of the watch detail (I bet at least 4) been asleep?
What about one's responsibility not to cross the path of others?
Unless the navy has changed more than is imaginable (by me), there had to be people on watch who saw this coming, and alerted the bridge, especially if disabling ones own radars is part of being stealthy. Didn't sonar hear it bearing down/getting closer?
As a conspiracy realist who knew with certainty that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a false flag operation way back in 1966, I smell a skunk.
Given two deadly incidents in two months, both involving 'modern-day' digital destroyers, I'm guessing a 'hack' occurred, not unlike when our Navy vessels could not respond during 'enemy' fly-overs in the Black Sea and Baltic, even if they wanted to. And if any crew member mentions what actually happened, they'll likely know the Philly brig intimately, and/or lose all bennies forever.
There's a cover-up going on, be there no doubt.
I knew it back in 1966, and left the navy asap.
These dead sailors never had a chance, and unless this is made public, more will follow.
My condolences to all who care.
As an ex-Navy person, I think there are already enough paranoid conspiracy theories on the internet. You don't need to start flogging yet another one about evil gub'ment cover-ups and false flag operations.
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Last edited by troy2000; 08-22-2017 at 01:10 PM.
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post #32 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

apparently they did not read this one....

http://a.co/5BEEGLc

How to Avoid HUGE Ships (Second Edition) - Available on Amazon.

Tartan 31

Last edited by scubadoo; 08-22-2017 at 02:32 PM.
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post #33 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Can you sue US Navy and individual commanders for wrongful death? Somebody should do that. Nothing teaches people responsibility better than huge fines and jail time.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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post #34 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

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I am not sure that we will ever know all the facts on this, but one thing that has me troubled is that this is actually the fourth or fifth serious navigational error issue in the South China Sea in the past couple years (two groundings, two ship to ship collisions and a sinking of a fishing boat that had AIS). I recently read an article that the U.S. Military is thinking of going back to radio based navigation similar to Loran because the military has discovered that GPS can be too easy hacked and spoofed thereby providing inaccurate position information.

What makes this so suspicious is that even a ship running invisibly can track the movement of other ships using AIS and should have been able to avoid a collision. You have to think that any vessel in as crowded a sea land as this would have been at least minimally tracking AIS and had automated warning systems activated. But if their GPS is not giving them an accurate position, then it would be easy to think that a collision or grounding is unlikely when it fact you are in a spot where a collision is imminent. What the article said that to me made it plausible for these collisions to be the result of a distorted signal is that US military GPS operates in a different mode than the civilian version which allows the civilian version to be scrambled to reduce accuracy in times of war.

Jeff
AIS is GPS driven.. if the GPS signal is unreliable.... all AIS's in the area would be garbage in garbage out.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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post #35 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

Yes, let's blame the US Navy collisions on Russia's hacking of the GPS system Navy uses...

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato
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post #36 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

You may want to read this AMA from a sailor

https://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comm...schedule_on_a/

The short of it is that they don't sleep.

If this is true it is very dangerous.

Remember a few years ago when a lot of Post Office guys were committing suicide because they were pushed too hard. It looks like they are pushing the limits of the Navy crew.

The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.
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post #37 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

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AIS is GPS driven.. if the GPS signal is unreliable.... all AIS's in the area would be garbage in garbage out.
That is my point. If the military version of GPS was distorted, which at least according to the article seemed to be comparatively easy to do, the Navy ships would see the positions of private vessels accurately since they would be on non-military GPS signals, but the naval ship would not see their position accurately because their GPS signal is not the same as the ships around them.

Jeff


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post #38 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

We are all entitled to our own opinions, Troy, but not our own facts. "Paranoid conspiracy theories"? Certainly there are many crazy ones afloat the ‘internets’ (GWB), but the incidents I mentioned, though all officially denied, are now proven to all with at least two neurons and a working synapse. If you'd like to debate any or all of them, game on! Do you deny the existence of false flag operations? Or is it that our 'evil gub'ment' (your term) is incapable of foisting them upon our oh-so gullible citizenry? Or both? I self-labeled as a conspiracy realist, and I stand by that term, because I live in the real world, not some fanciful creation I wish was true.
I originally said that I smelled a skunk after two of our destroyers inexplicably got t-boned in the last two months by freighters (first time in our ‘modern-day’ history??), and especially so, now that there is a fleet-wide stand-down/pause and the Fitzgerald's CO and some senior crew have been blamed and sanctioned so quickly (not unlike the Admiral who was officially blamed for allowing the Pearl Harbor attack to take place). Will they be exonerated or should they be? I don’t know. All I know is that it has happened in the past many times, usually long after the accusatory damage was done and innocent lives and careers were ruined. Others have previously opined that they question whether we’ll ever find out what really happened, and I stand with them, too. Please tell me, what is it exactly Troy, that got your panties twisted so tight?
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post #39 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
That is my point. If the military version of GPS was distorted, which at least according to the article seemed to be comparatively easy to do, the Navy ships would see the positions of private vessels accurately since they would be on non-military GPS signals, but the naval ship would not see their position accurately because their GPS signal is not the same as the ships around them.

Jeff
Jeff, it is not any new situation (2 GPS versions used) and the civilian GPS system is not distorted on purpose. It is merely not as accurate but the accuracy is in the range of 10' max. If you get within 20' of another vessel on purpose, you better have physical eye contact with it as well. And no, night is not an excuse for poor lookout. These folks have awesome night vision technology. Navy knows all these were clearly human error situations on their end - as the disciplinary pattern shows. Mind boggling human error situations.

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post #40 of 110 Old 08-22-2017
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Re: Another Navy ship collision. 10 "missing"

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Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
Jeff, it is not any new situation (2 GPS versions used) and the civilian GPS system is not distorted on purpose. It is merely not as accurate but the accuracy is in the range of 10' max. If you get within 20' of another vessel on purpose, you better have physical eye contact with it as well. And no, night is not an excuse for poor lookout. These folks have awesome night vision technology. Navy knows all these were clearly human error situations on their end - as the disciplinary pattern shows. Mind boggling human error situations.
I see your point.

I knew about the two versions of GPS from the time that GPS was first introduced. Originally the civilian version had variable accuracy built into it (something like 100 meters). At some point later on this variable accuracy was turned off. The article suggested that GPS signals can be spoofed and give false readings. I was merely conjecturing that perhaps with all of these nav. errors in one small area, the military GPS was giving false positioning.

But I see your point entirely. Thanks
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