US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!! - Page 10 - SailNet Community
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post #91 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

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Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
Once forum people start down the high and mighty "rules" quoting you know a thread is over.

And I will restate once again for some of you playing the blame game that you don't understand how a war ship operates.
I know! I know! "With impunity."
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post #92 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

There is only one single fact that matters right now. The fact that we don't have them all. Likely we never will.


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post #93 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

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Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
Once forum people start down the high and mighty "rules" quoting you know a thread is over.

And I will restate once again for some of you playing the blame game that you don't understand how a war ship operates.
You keep saying that, but what exactly do you mean? It seems to me that it matters very little who was at fault in these latest two collisions. US naval ships were seriously damaged and US sailors lost their lives. As the incidents are investigated, so what if the freighters were found to be at fault? Do you think that the US Naval Command will give the commanders of these two ships a pass because they had the right-of-way?

The job of the navy is going to be figuring out how they can avoid future collisions with the next rusting hulk of a Liberian or Panamanian registered freighter that violates the rules. It doesn't seem that it really matters who was at fault, but how can our commanders change what they are doing to protect our sailors and ships from the ships that do wrong.

The commanders of the Fitzgerald and the John McCain probably find little comfort in knowing that their vehicles were the Stand On vessels.
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post #94 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Might have been stand on vessels. We don't know that.
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post #95 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

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Originally Posted by TonyCross View Post
It's very easy to say people don't understand what they are talking about, but I notice you don't explain How a Warship
operates, as for my quoting ColRegs sorry but they are in place to try and avoid exactly this type of incident.

So tell us how does a Warship operate.

(note: Warship is one word, being an expert in the matter, something I thought you may have known)
A war ship works with one person in charge. When you sea lawyers start with your “so and and so are responsible” you prove you know nothing of how a command structure of a war ship operates. As nothing to do with the ones you are now looking to blur with your Congress, but everything with all people you look to hold at blame.

But I’m sure a person petty enough to suggest they know the Conregs and others don’t and to still have time to be a word police can hold all the ship crew responsible.
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post #96 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

I agree with Don. There is only one person on command in a warship or any military vessel. That person would be the officer on watch and/or the commanding officer. This person is the only one who would be responsible for a collision assuming that the warship was the ship at fault for the collision. (Assuming also that there was no mutiny on board - which is so unlikely at this point that this is pretty much a given.) Something of this magnitude would probably place the commanding officer responsible even if they weren't on watch but that may depend on further investigations...the rest of the crew merely report and follow orders.


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post #97 of 104 Old 09-25-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

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Originally Posted by neeqness View Post
I agree with Don. There is only one person on command in a warship or any military vessel. That person would be the officer on watch and/or the commanding officer. This person is the only one who would be responsible for a collision assuming that the warship was the ship at fault for the collision.
I don't care who is legally responsible. I want our government and navy to find out how and why it has happened more than once, so no more of our sailors die.

If the investigation finds that it was due to inadequate training of those standing watch, or of those monitoring radar, or if they find that it was due to unreasonable watch rotation schedules, I want them to that make changes and remedy the problem. Changing commanders doesn't fix the problem if it is a systemic problem that has become endemic to the navy.
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post #98 of 104 Old 09-26-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

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I don't care who is legally responsible. I want our government and navy to find out how and why it has happened more than once, so no more of our sailors die.

If the investigation finds that it was due to inadequate training of those standing watch, or of those monitoring radar, or if they find that it was due to unreasonable watch rotation schedules, I want them to that make changes and remedy the problem. Changing commanders doesn't fix the problem if it is a systemic problem that has become endemic to the navy.
That's kind of our point. There is no issue whether someone missed the ship or not. The officer on watch is on the bridge and should be able to see the freighter just fine. For something major like a collision, it should be that officers fault regardless...the officer is not relying entirely on the crew for everything. Minor details, perhaps, but something this serious should have been resolved and handled by that officer in command of the destroyer...period.

That's what they are there for. That's their job and their responsibility. They are not blindly depending on their crew either for something of this magnitude. The bridge has portals to look through. They can walk over and look at the radar screen. They are the ones who tell the crew what to do and the crew MUST obey. There really is no excuse here...

...if the destroyer is at fault, of course.

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post #99 of 104 Old 09-27-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

at least ais will weed out accidental vs deliberate strikes.....
ais will make it clearer which ship to hit, and that in itself will help to clear this up.
ais will give them huge visibility and cargo ships will not have to wait for them to appear before taking aim. that last minute turn by cargo ship would be removed from the picture.
they get hit while using ais, then it is deliberate.
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post #100 of 104 Old 09-27-2017
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Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

"ais will give them huge visibility"
Which certainly sounds good, and a major safety increase. Except...

Remember the USS Cole? You think it is a good idea to give every jihadi and other nut job out there the exact position of every USN vessel, even if they might be otherwise safe in a fog bank?

This is a two-edged sword and if the real issue is inadequate crew training and inadequate number of crew on board (standing too many hours on duty) then the real issue still needs to be addressed and distractions and kludges like AIS will only cause more damage by allowing the root problem to continue growing.

Which is sadly the American way.

What is proper for a yacht or a merchantman, is NOT necessarily good or proper for a military vessel expecting hostile action.
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