US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!! - Page 6 - SailNet Community
 98Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #51 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
fallard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 2,257
Thanks: 12
Thanked 79 Times in 78 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIEXILE View Post
Sounds to me like stealth and incompetence on a much more maneuverable vessel IS the problem. Those babies (freighters, container ships) carry a massive amount of mo and doing anything around that is very difficult with MILES of warning. It's like teaching someone on a 50' footer to enter a marina and dock without mashing things up. Momentum. But go ahead and blame the civilians.
Blame is always shared in a collision. Let's see what the investigations determine before jumping to conclusions about blame on one side only.

BTW, I use my radar many miles out when concerned about a crossing situation with larger commercial vessels. If there is any doubt, I pick up the VHF. No reason we can't expect merchantmen to do the same.
fallard is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #52 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,361
Thanks: 198
Thanked 171 Times in 167 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Fallard, have you seen the traffic conditions in the straight at the time of this collision?

This was no simple crossing situation, it was bumper to bumper traffic.
Deina likes this.
Arcb is offline  
post #53 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
mstern's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,420
Thanks: 58
Thanked 51 Times in 48 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

All technology aside, there is no way that this should have happened to a US Navy ship. All of the systems in place to avoid collision -- lookouts, radar, AIS -- were asleep/not there/incompetent/non-functional, or their warnings were ignored or incompetently acted upon. All of the explanations/excuses/justifications, etc. are just so much window dressing. This is a total failure by the Navy; the best we can hope for is to have a full accounting of how each system failed, and to have the Navy, Congress and the president really do something about it.
SanderO and Deina like this.
mstern is online now  
 
post #54 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 19,245
Thanks: 82
Thanked 541 Times in 518 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

I agree, this was a USN failure. Could be incompetence, could be cyber or even sabotage. I don't, on the other hand, think we are due an open vetting on it all, especially if it revealed a weakness in our defenses. If there is one, I would hope the gap is being closed.
SanderO and Deina like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #55 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
Hush34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Orlando
Posts: 244
Thanks: 68
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

I spent 10 years on submarines, so I don't know if I am qualified to respond, but here goes. AIS wasn't around in the late 80's and early 90's. Don't remember us running into cargo ships then and am surprised by the recent increase in collisions. I hate to sound like a nut, but has anyone thought the collisions were intentional? I can only imagine, because I spent much time under the surface, that our ships today have lookouts, kinda like the sort I keep on my sailboat. When you see a ship coming what do you do????? I make drastic course changes to make sure the vessel I am encountering, understands my intentions. I don't have a four to six look outs, a radar watch, and a sonar watch. How the hell do you manage to hit or be hit by someone in the middle of the ocean. Our naval ships have guns on them. Solution: Make it known that anyone who closes a US Naval Ship to within 1 nautical mile will be considered a threat and will be blown up. Would hazard to guess that even the most inept captain on a merchant marine vessel would tell his crew, "Stay the hell away from the US Naval Ships."

Just an old submariner with a practical solution. Carry on.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
Hush34 is offline  
post #56 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
fallard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mystic
Posts: 2,257
Thanks: 12
Thanked 79 Times in 78 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Fallard, have you seen the traffic conditions in the straight at the time of this collision?

This was no simple crossing situation, it was bumper to bumper traffic.
Both US Navy ships were T-boned. Looks like a crossing situation to me, but nobody said it wasn't a busy area that deserved a diligent watch.
fallard is online now  
post #57 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,361
Thanks: 198
Thanked 171 Times in 167 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Like you said, let's wait and see what the investigation says. We'll see if it was a crossing situation or not. We'll also see what role other traffic that was present in the area played in the situation.

We know from the AIS replay that the Merchant was proceeding in the correct direction in a VTS zone leading into the busiest straight in the world. Sounds like you're saying the Navy ship was crossing the VTS zone at a 90 degree angle. That doesn't sound so simple to me.
Deina likes this.

Last edited by Arcb; 09-22-2017 at 05:39 PM.
Arcb is offline  
post #58 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Senior Member
 
CVAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 162
Thanks: 12
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hush34 View Post
I spent 10 years on submarines, so I don't know if I am qualified to respond, but here goes. AIS wasn't around in the late 80's and early 90's. Don't remember us running into cargo ships then and am surprised by the recent increase in collisions. I hate to sound like a nut, but has anyone thought the collisions were intentional? I can only imagine, because I spent much time under the surface, that our ships today have lookouts, kinda like the sort I keep on my sailboat. When you see a ship coming what do you do????? I make drastic course changes to make sure the vessel I am encountering, understands my intentions. I don't have a four to six look outs, a radar watch, and a sonar watch. How the hell do you manage to hit or be hit by someone in the middle of the ocean. Our naval ships have guns on them. Solution: Make it known that anyone who closes a US Naval Ship to within 1 nautical mile will be considered a threat and will be blown up. Would hazard to guess that even the most inept captain on a merchant marine vessel would tell his crew, "Stay the hell away from the US Naval Ships."

Just an old submariner with a practical solution. Carry on.
It happened just we did not have 24 hour news or the internet back then, google USS Midway collision with Cactus, there are others that sticks to mind due to the fact I served on USS Midway in the mid to late 80's and we still discussed it. Also google USS Ranger and its collision in the early to mid 80's, I think the Kitty Hawk also had her paint scuffed, could be wrong on her though, but definitely Ranger and Midway.

In the end collision at sea between two ships became an issue as soon as there where two ships operating in the same area, in other words since we have put to sea. Automated Systems can be a double edge sword improving situational awareness and reducing the required manpower on one hand but tending to allow watch-standers to be lazier and less observant of their surrounding on the other, and fully automated system bring on a whole plethora of issues in and of itself.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Use your head for something other than a hat rest.
CVAT is offline  
post #59 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 91
Thanks: 4
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 2
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
Blame is always shared in a collision. Let's see what the investigations determine before jumping to conclusions about blame on one side only.
Yet you keep trying to put the blame entirely on the merchantmen.
Quote:
BTW, I use my radar many miles out when concerned about a crossing situation with larger commercial vessels. If there is any doubt, I pick up the VHF. No reason we can't expect merchantmen to do the same.
No reason we can't expect the Navy to do the same. They have the greater visibility of the situation.

Last edited by Deina; 09-22-2017 at 06:23 PM.
Deina is offline  
post #60 of 104 Old 09-22-2017
Land lubber
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Homosassa, FL
Posts: 1,421
Thanks: 98
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: US Navy murder to stop! All US Navy ships must NOW USE AIS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hush34 View Post
Solution: Make it known that anyone who closes a US Naval Ship to within 1 nautical mile will be considered a threat and will be blown up.
Why stop at 1 mile. Why not just blow up everything you can find?

Does this include blowing up everything in a harbor that is anchored when a US Navy ship pulls in?
ianjoub is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chicago Match Cup and Tall Ships® Chicago 2013: A Navy Pier Maritime Celebration & $1 NewsReader News Feeds 0 01-30-2013 12:40 PM
Boston Navy Week/Tall Ships Nautical Wheeler General Discussion (sailing related) 0 06-30-2012 10:00 AM
Sri Lankan navy attacks rebel ships (AP via Yahoo! News) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-24-2006 09:20 PM
Sri Lanka navy attacks rebel ships (AP via Yahoo! News) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-24-2006 08:15 PM
Restless Adventures: Navy Marina to Navy Marina @ Sail Blogs NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-18-2006 06:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome