Oyster is closing its doors - Page 10 - SailNet Community
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post #91 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
That of course is a valid point of view, but on the other hand most cat owners have only experienced their own cat. We on the other hand see almost every cat on the market, close up, in a wide variety of weather and sea conditions, almost daily.
I've been on boats almost all my life and I certainly don't have to be aboard a boat 500 yards from me to see it is making more leeway than headway, or assume that it is must be very uncomfortable ride when a 40 odd foot Lagoon is showing both her keels as she pounds directly to weather, under power, in measly 5 to 7 foot seas and 20 knots of wind!
Or sitting in an anchorage where we are rolling deeply, but slowly, and the cat 50 feet away has a very sharp, jerky motion that I, once again, assume must be terribly uncomfortable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of the cat designers/manufacturers have never actually anchored or moored a cat with a bridle, because the only attachment points available for the bridle on a great number of these cats, are the bow cleats on the outside of the hulls forward (for tying to the dock, I assume), making the bridle run around the front of the bows to the anchor or mooring buoy, chafing the sh*t out of the lines and wearing on the paint! That leads me to wonder what other idiotic things these designers have incorporated into these boats!
So, believe whomever you wish and dismiss others like me with snarky comments like "They know exactly what they are talking about - first hand." or "your strongly held opinions" and completely ignore the fact that mine are mostly not opinions at all, but first hand, close up observations, from over six years of seeing a great many different boats, in a great variety of conditions, out here in the eastern Caribbean.
Capta, I don't know where to start on this. Most cat owners have only been on their own boat, and you have mucho experience with catamarans because you live in charter territory and see many of them each day?

Am I an expert on monos because I see them every day (well, actually I have more experience mono than multi, but the point is still valid)? I see a lot of racing boats also; am I an expert on them? Same with power boats?

Neither of your statements are factual. Most people I know with catamarans have much experience on different ones. This is the same with most people I know with monohulls too. From the this posting and your earlier one, it is obvious you do not know much about this boat type, or are wallowing in confirmational bias.

There is not a sub-50' catamaran that crossed the Atlantic at 14kts in the ARC, let alone multiple ones. It just doesn't exist, unless there was a full-out small racer that I'm not aware of. You can look that up instead of "heard tell".

The bridle thing is laughable - particularly since you assigned this problem as an inherent deficiency in all catamarans, and even implicated the designers and builders. Perhaps you did see a particular boat with this arrangement - I do not know of a single model that has it, and have never seen it done this way (and I guarantee that I have more personal experience with more catamaran brands and models than you do). Perhaps you saw a charter boat where the charterers didn't understand how to connect a bridle, or the regular cleats for this purpose were unusable or broken due to other charter mishaps?

And because you know this bridle thing is a design fault in all catamarans, you question the entire build and design of all catamarans.

Shall I tell you what I've seen done by charterers in monohulls? Even owners of monohulls? It would curdle your mind to know the bad designs inherent in all monohulls based on my observations of the above.

What boat goes directly into weather under power in 5-7" short seas and 20kts without bouncing around and showing its bottom? Maybe a big heavy slow mono, but most all boats will be wet and bouncy in this. How does this even play into an argument?

I have 15 years of direct experience of both owning and sailing on many different catamaran brands and models from old Prouts to all-out racing and everything in between. 10 of those years are full-time live aboard cruising in different and varied areas. I spend time almost daily having discussions with other catamaran owners, and crawl through and around different ones seeing all the systems and design/build.

Here is the bottom line: you are full of it with the above postings. There is no other way to put that, and to believe that sitting in charter country observing boats from a distance makes you an expert on them is incredible hutzpah.

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post #92 of 312 Old 02-08-2018 Thread Starter
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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Out - I'm with you on the issue of dockage. I definitely don't think it makes sense to buy a multi if you're just going to keep it at a marina in one area. I don't plan to do that. I plan to be out sailing - for a couple of years at least. So that's not as much a factor.

As for the other stuff you list, some of it I've heard similar to your retelling from those with cats, other stuff I've heard exactly the opposite.
FWIW we have looked looked at cats.

Specifically we became very fond of a Fountaine Pajot Athena 38. For a family cruising there is much to recommend a Cat. For the moment we don't seem to be heading that direction but that could change.

This discussion is as old as internet sailing forums. While i'm interested in the pros and cons I just am unsure why this continues to be such a polarising debate?

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post #93 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

Have a decent relationship with my yard manager in RI and with the folks in Nanny Key. Also friends shared some of their costs running their boats including summer costs in Grenada/Trinidad So have a sense of costs in New England and Caribbean. Annual budget will run ~ 1 1/2 to 2X current budget. Iím not going around the world. If so would sell the house have Chris White build me a boat and be gone from SN. Iím doing a more limited program of chasing the sun and hopefully a trip across the pond at some point. Still passages are involved.
Just like with monos there are multis designed with passage making in mind and those designed with coastal/charter in mind. We can re-enter the endless argument about this or accept agreement to to disagree. The second category is in reach for me. The first is not without selling off assets. I donít think Iím alone in this. I fully agree the multi segment of the market is hot and will continue to grow. I disagree that the mono segment will wither and die.
My current obstacles are 15-20 year wait for a mooring within hundreds of miles of me. Not purchase expense but annual budget. Boat handling in close quarters without help. I have no interest in the typical Caribbean charter boat for a variety of reasons but mostly due to what I view as inadequacies of construction. Smack please stop showing pics of these unless to further a substantive point.

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post #94 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

I don't think there will ever be a winner in the mono vs multi thing. Both concepts have been around for thousands of years and one particular design of each concept might have been better for a given purpose at a given time or in relation to a given cultures capabilities, but one has never been better than the other. Further more, speaking of catamarans or monos in broad terms doesn't add up either. Designs can be wildly different from one to the next. It has always been this way.

What hasn't been around forever is high aspect external keels. Until fairly recently keels were mostly structural. As far as I know high aspect external keels have been restricted to modern mono hull recreational sailing yachts. It's not a concept that has ever really been adopted by commercial transportation or military use. Weird.

It seems as though more than one company has been struggling with how they are attaching these keels to hulls. Heavy weights on long levers. Kind of scary when you think about them. I am curious if these keel attachment challenges are more pronounced in relatively larger mono hulls. Bigger weight on a longer lever, lots of force. Or if we just hear more about incidents with bigger boats because they are higher profile incidents on open ocean?
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post #95 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But it's a bit "sensible shoes" to me in the aesthetics department. Not exactly clean and proportional.

What's Dufour coming out with? I saw a website but it seems to be a placeholder.
Dufour is in tooling phase and haven't produced a boat yet - just taking orders.

You know, I'm slowly coming around to this type of aesthetics, and starting to see older designs like a LeRouge as being dated. For sure when this styling first appeared I was appalled, but owning a catamaran changes one to appreciate function over form for living, and these styles come with some great functionality. Even beyond that, I'm coming around to the style itself. I had similar change of opinion on the Euro/Ikea interior styles over the years.

Besides, there is plenty of room for hating on style in the catamaran market:

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post #96 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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As far as I know high aspect external keels have been restricted to modern mono hull recreational sailing yachts. It's not a concept that has ever really been adopted by commercial transportation or military use. Weird.
Not weird when you consider that keels are only necessary for sailboats, and that commercial and military sailing ships went extinct over a century ago.

I'm not aware of keels falling off so regularly that they present a real concern. I think the publicity surrounding the very few that have in the past 10yrs makes the point that it is rare. For sure, the forces scale, and must be taken into account during design and construction, but I think this is well-understood now, and I don't know of any company "struggling" with the issue in general.

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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Dude, get a grip.......
Define, irony.

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I just pointed out that the same people you worry about cannot afford the same costs of the boat you currently own. Or any similar monohull. So it is a bit of disingenuous "worry" to pick and choose what is problematic and what is not.
You've completely missed my point. I referenced the younger generation's inability to afford a cat over a mono, you decided to think about a middle aged guy's choice and ability. I'll just let my post stand above, for those who understood it.


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post #98 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

You missed my point that the younger generation has never been able to afford whole categories of boats. Multi or mono. Catamarans are in the Jeanneau 54DS category. In the past, they couldn't afford Hinckely Pilot 35's and settled for used older cheaper boats.

So you have defined and assigned a "problem" to fit your concern. On the other hand, there are catamarans for sale below $100,000, and even in the $50,000 range - possibly less. Check out older Warrams, Deans, Fountaine Pajots, Prouts, and Solaris. But still they aren't in the "essentially free" category, where old monos can be had.

But that is irrelevant - nothing has changed from how it was in the past. Multihull/old monohull has nothing to do with it, anymore than Hinckley B40/old Islander 26 did in the past.

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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

How does a thread about Oyster closing become one about catamarans?

Moderators need to move debates/discussions about cats and cats vs mono out of this thread.

The reason for their closing may be related to the notion that buyers who want a lot of sailboat real estate... are choosing shorter wider cats over longer narrower monos. Has this figured into the calculus of Oyster?

Whether cats are better to cruise on or not... the fact remains that the marine "infrastructure" in New England (and maybe the rest of the USA) is geared toward monohulls with narrow beams. The calculus of interior volume, cockpit size, LWL and cost are more complex. Finally, the aesthetics of cats might have a ways to go to capture the fancy of most monohull sailors. None of this may play into the decision to shut the doors at Oyster.
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post #100 of 312 Old 02-08-2018
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Not weird when you consider that keels are only necessary for sailboats, and that commercial and military sailing ships went extinct over a century ago.

I'm not aware of keels falling off so regularly that they present a real concern. I think the publicity surrounding the very few that have in the past 10yrs makes the point that it is rare. For sure, the forces scale, and must be taken into account during design and construction, but I think this is well-understood now, and I don't know of any company "struggling" with the issue in general.

Mark
Maybe not weird for you, but it's an anamoly to me, I can't think of a single other conveyance aside from the modern recreational keel boat that uses a concept similar to an external high aspect keel.

Interesting approach to public safety. How many keels would need to fall off of relatively new boats at sea before it was a cause for concern? 1? 5? 10? 2000? Who have you consulted with, the company employees that have been impacted? The courts who have been settling the disputes? The families of those directly affected?

If these were aircraft losing wings mid flight and some one said, I wonder if we're using the right glue to attach these aircraft wings, would you give the same answers.

You can think whatever you want, but I am going to continue to wonder if there might be an issue with how some keels are being attached.
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