Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread) - Page 11 - SailNet Community
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post #101 of 119 Old 02-15-2018
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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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The cat interiors I see are still working at establishing a new interior sensibility for a marine interior. It's a new territory and the only reference are the old monos. But note how many of the newer and larger monos are having a go at this new "aesthetic". I suspect it may take time for this to be universally accepted as people cling to what has been psychologically historically comfortable.

And there really was almost no gradual "evolution" of the interior of these boats.... they took a big step into "new". Perhaps this offered many what they wanted while losing something that they had... in both the psychological and functional sense.
Yeah - this is essentially what I've been saying. What I find amusing about the IKEA put-down is that it's primarily an older American audience pulling the only conceptual reference they have to Euro-modernist design. They equate the design aesthetic itself with the quality of goods at a single low-cost furniture store. That really shows the ignorance and bias of the argument in not even understanding what IKEA is about.

And on your point about "evolution" - I'm not so sure about that. Even 25 years ago Beneteau was pushing the envelop of design with its interiors...



I can't remember for certain, but I think it was Frank Gehry who contributed to the above design.

Again, these kinds of arguments are typically from a very American-traditionalist viewpoint. People tend to see only what they want to see. This new design aesthetic has been coming a long time. I'm glad it's here. Go the IKEA!

It's WAY better than the effort in the above pic (though that was very chick in the days of Wham!),

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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Yeah - this is essentially what I've been saying. What I find amusing about the IKEA put-down is that it's primarily an older American audience pulling the only conceptual reference they have to Euro-modernist design. They equate the design aesthetic itself with the quality of goods at a single low-cost furniture store. That really shows the ignorance and bias of the argument in not even understanding what IKEA is about.

And on your point about "evolution" - I'm not so sure about that. Even 25 years ago Beneteau was pushing the envelop of design with its interiors...



I can't remember for certain, but I think it was Frank Gehry who contributed to the above design.

Again, these kinds of arguments are typically from a very American-traditionalist viewpoint. People tend to see only what they want to see. This new design aesthetic has been coming a long time. I'm glad it's here. Go the IKEA!

It's WAY better than the effort in the above pic (though that was very chick in the days of Wham!),
No it wasn't frank Gehry... it was Philipe Stark.

The deal with Ikea vernacular was that so much of it lacks any "detail" and in that sense it derives from Italian moderism... from which Scandinavian modern was derived

"Emerging in the 1950s alongside the modernist movement in Europe and America, Scandinavian modern style prioritized democratic, affordable, and sleek furnishings and interiors. Clean lines, functional furnishings, and a neutral palette were hallmarks of modernist style everywhere. But the Scandinavian design of the era was also heavily influenced by the Nordic region's cold, short winter days and a desire for interiors to be cozy yet bright."

Italian Modern design summary here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_design

"After World War II, however, was the period in which Italy had a true avant-garde in interior design. With the fall of Fascism, rise of Socialism and the 1946 RIMA exhibition, Italian talents in interior decorating were made evident, and with the Italian economic miracle, Italy saw a growth in industrial production and also mass-made furniture. Yet, the 1960s and 1970s saw Italian interior design reach its pinnacle of stylishness, and by that point, with Pop and post-modern interiors, the phrases "Bel Design" and "Linea Italiana" entered the vocabulary of furniture design.[2"

Daddy you need to brush up your design history a bit. But modernism was an industrial response to the age of craft and hand made furniture and interiors.

The odd thing about boat interiors is that are largely hand made... a throw back to the art nouveau era. The "ikea interiors" may not be manufactured as Ikea is, but they use the same lines and themes and don't look hand made.

The impractical teak deck is also a craft intensive install... and you'll see almost no teak on cats for this reason (as well as weight) I suspect.

Cats have a "machine" look message... monos until recently had a hand made look message.... The machine look is one people are more comfortable with because of cars and trains and so on... even mass produced furniture. This is what forms the sensibilities of the (not design educated) consumers... exposure and context... and analogy.

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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No it wasn't frank Gehry... it was Philipe Stark.
That's right. This is Gehry's yacht...





Definitely not IKEA. My bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
The deal with Ikea vernacular was that so much of it lacks any "detail" and in that sense it derives from Italian moderism... from which Scandinavian modern was derived

"Emerging in the 1950s alongside the modernist movement in Europe and America, Scandinavian modern style prioritized democratic, affordable, and sleek furnishings and interiors. Clean lines, functional furnishings, and a neutral palette were hallmarks of modernist style everywhere. But the Scandinavian design of the era was also heavily influenced by the Nordic region's cold, short winter days and a desire for interiors to be cozy yet bright."

Italian Modern design summary here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_design

"After World War II, however, was the period in which Italy had a true avant-garde in interior design. With the fall of Fascism, rise of Socialism and the 1946 RIMA exhibition, Italian talents in interior decorating were made evident, and with the Italian economic miracle, Italy saw a growth in industrial production and also mass-made furniture. Yet, the 1960s and 1970s saw Italian interior design reach its pinnacle of stylishness, and by that point, with Pop and post-modern interiors, the phrases "Bel Design" and "Linea Italiana" entered the vocabulary of furniture design.[2"

Daddy you need to brush up your design history a bit. But modernism was an industrial response to the age of craft and hand made furniture and interiors.
Actually, you just laid out exactly what I said. Euro-modernism is the underlying drive to all of this. So I think my history is pretty spot on...unless Italy wasn't part of Europe.

Remember, you also had Bauhaus and De Stijl driving similar influences at that same time. It's just that the Italians had more refined taste (which is why I drive a Maserati).

But I think you're a bit off base saying that modernism was somehow at odds with hand made craft. The modernist movement was just a vast simplification of style at that time (anti-adornment). That's all. It didn't negate craftsmanship - it just changed its focus. At the same time, that force alone lent itself to easier mass production and a reduction in required "artistry/craft" in the end product.

And that's why architecture is a rapidly dying profession. But I digress.

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The odd thing about boat interiors is that are largely hand made... a throw back to the art nouveau era.
Actually, no they're not. Even IP was not "hand-making" their interiors. Virtually everything is computer-cut and assembled into a modular component. Have you seen the Hinckley Bermuda 50? Hand finished? Maybe. But there's no art nouveau in any surviving volume boat manufacturer these days that I know of - even the traditional brands that are left. Which builder(s) are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
The "ikea interiors" may not be manufactured as Ikea is, but they use the same lines and themes and don't look hand made.

The impractical teak deck is also a craft intensive install... and you'll see almost no teak on cats for this reason (as well as weight) I suspect.
Again, what boat out there truly has a "hand-made" interior?

One of the big reasons you don't see teak decks is not just that they are expensive to source and install but: a) they were a left-over design element from yesteryear - like the wood paneling on a '70s station wagon - so are really just an artifice that serves no function (back to the modernist ideal); and, b) they are a freakin' nightmare to maintain. I would never buy a boat with even the fake stuff. It just makes no sense unless you're in a cold climate which drives that tradition (sorry Bavaria and Hanse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Cats have a "machine" look message... monos until recently had a hand made look message.... The machine look is one people are more comfortable with because of cars and trains and so on... even mass produced furniture. This is what forms the sensibilities of the (not design educated) consumers... exposure and context... and analogy.
I think you're over-thinking it a bit. This new aesthetic just looks great and makes sense. And the cost benefits make this all much more accessible to a much wider buyer base. That's why it's in such high demand, and why IKEA is dominating the world even with cheap particle board that's super fly.

PS - Having owned a yacht in the "tropics" it is definitely NOT comfortable down below in 95 degree heat...regardless of how dark you make it.

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

Daddy, much of what you write is fine. Some of it is more how you want to look at it perhaps because you are "invested" in your beliefs... not uncommon.

CADCAM is relatively new... I would think... my boat was built in 85 and I visited the factory. The plans were hand drawn so it seems unlikely that they would use CADCAM.... they didn't. The work and I saw the interiors being built were done by hand by joiners using stationary and portable power tools. As I have written many times on this forum... my views are informed by my personal experience and 32+ years of owning and sailing Shiva, a Contest 36s.

I can't comment on Hinckley, Hunter, Pearson, Catalina, IP, Morris or any other boat building from the era when I became boat aware. It wouldn't surprize me that boat parts are now manufactured with CADCAM and C&C machining.

I lived on my boat in the Eastern Caribe for several years. I used a portable "tent" to provide shade and it did lower the temps 10 degrees. My boat was quite comfortable and the dark interior soothing. So my experience is not the same as yours. Just as you are thrilled with these light exposed spacious interiors.... I am turned off by most of them (not all) whether cat or mono... And many will claim modernist interiors are too stark and cold and uninviting... And vivre la difference.

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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At present and for many years Chris White has been building his own boats.
Chris White does not build his own boats. He has no construction facilities. From his website: Chris White Designs works closely with owners and builders, providing personalized service to boat owners, including construction oversight, brokerage of CWD boats, and ongoing consultation.

There are a couple of yards he works closely with, but not as a builder - only a consultant. Alwoplast, in Chile build boats from several designers - Chris White is only one. Aquidneck and other companies also build his designs.

CW also sells plans for some of his boats to home builders, as he has in the past. I've been on an Atlantic 40 (precursor to the 42) that was home-built.

Mark
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Re: Oyster is closing its doors

I'm seeing more and more younger couples on Youtube moving to cats...


(I'll be interested to see where this one goes. I have my concerns.)

First, with all the new Youtube channels of younger people getting into sailing it shows an actual resurgence in interest in the next generation. And with the growing interest in cats over monos - it validates those market numbers we discussed earlier. Unless some manufacturer in the US can come up with a good multi solution, the game may be over.
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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

^^^Hey - this isn't the thread I posted that into. I posted it in Chall's Oyster thread where Chall, Mark, myself, and others did a lot of work covering various aspects and examples of mutlihulls.

Are you mods going to move those posts to another thread - or did you just nuke all of that? A lot of work went into that content and it was very informative for most readers.

I hope you're just moving it and/or renaming it as requested. This thread is pretty specific to what Chall is looking for - not the general market for mutlis.

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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^^^Hey - this isn't the thread I posted that into. I posted it in Chall's Oyster thread where Chall, Mark, myself, and others did a lot of work covering various aspects and examples of mutlihulls.

Are you mods going to move those posts to another thread - or did you just nuke all of that? A lot of work went into that content and it was very informative for most readers.
Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently

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This thread is pretty specific to what Chall is looking for - not the general market for mutlis.
Look I am always happy to share my threads.
Hey the Sailnet I joined was founded on thread drift.

Meanwhile we have come across a cat of some interest closer to home. I still like the idea of our buy in the Med plan but A FP Athena 38 (that is not in the prettiest of conditions admittedly) is on the market for a very reasonable price here in OZ. Contradicting my earlier comments about our local market. Whether this specific boat is for us or not I am going to go and inspect I think.

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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently
I'm now getting gamed by the mods? Awesome.

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Meanwhile we have come across a cat of some interest closer to home. I still like the idea of our buy in the Med plan but A FP Athena 38 (that is not in the prettiest of conditions admittedly) is on the market for a very reasonable price here in OZ. Contradicting my earlier comments about our local market. Whether this specific boat is for us or not I am going to go and inspect I think.

2001 Fountaine Pajot Athena 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale
That is very nice looking boat Chall! Good luck!
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Re: Bluewater cruising cat for 150K? (Challs happy, happy no controversial cat thread

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Whatever their doing......its a secret apparently



Look I am always happy to share my threads.
Hey the Sailnet I joined was founded on thread drift.

Meanwhile we have come across a cat of some interest closer to home. I still like the idea of our buy in the Med plan but A FP Athena 38 (that is not in the prettiest of conditions admittedly) is on the market for a very reasonable price here in OZ. Contradicting my earlier comments about our local market. Whether this specific boat is for us or not I am going to go and inspect I think.

2001 Fountaine Pajot Athena 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale
and it is in Mooloolaba!

QLDER!!!!!
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