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post #41 of 65 Old 11-05-2018
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

Some thoughts on your plan if I understand it correctly. My 21 foot boat has neither a self draining cockpit nor a self draining sink. The boat has 0 through hulls.

Not having a self draining sink is no big deal. The sink is removable and I just toss the contents over the side when required.

Not having a self draining cockpit is a pain in the neck. It requires frequent bailing in anything but benign conditions. I have both a manual pump and a bleach bottle bailing can, we usually use the bleach bottle. Aside from being a pain in the neck on your boat, having a flooded cockpit would raise the centre of gravity on your boat as the cockpit is raised above the bottom of the hull. So raised centre of gravity plus free surface effect is going to impact your stability.


My thoughts are, no big deal to plug the sink, but potentially problematic and even unsafe to plug your scuppers. Here is a pic of my non self draining cockpit after about 90 minutes of hard rain.
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post #42 of 65 Old 11-05-2018
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

As Minne hinted, a properly done plug is going to take much longer than a properly done in-kind repair/replacement. Those through-hulls are there for good reason. The scuppers are essential to safety (and required by ABYC standards). Water will get in your cockpit, even with a cover. And when the boat is in use, there are many ways that rainwater or seawater will get into the cockpit. It needs to drain out, or your boat will become dangerously out of balance. Having shifting ballast is dangerous - it always shifts to the low point of the boat, which is the opposite side from where you want it.

Plugging your sink drain is similarly shortsighted. You'll need that sink for a lot more than washing hands. Suppose you do need to get into the bilge with Chlorox bottles or hand pumps to address a leak. Where is that water going to go? Are you really going to walk each cup of water out into the cockpit and throw it over the gunwale? You'll never keep up that way. You would put it in the sink.

There is a lot of useful knowledge here. Take advantage of it. Many of us have different styles and levels of bluntness. If you have a know-it-all attitude, some here will throw that right back at you. After contributing here for 10-15-20 years, people sometimes get that way. That may not be the most effective, but it's human nature. That doesn't mean their points aren't right.

I think you need to start listening more to the advice here. I'm not going to rant too much, but I do think taking that baby on an untested (and overloaded) boat was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Right as soon as I started reading your first post, when I got to that part I was screaming, "Noooooo!!!!!"

PS - You must add a bilge pump.
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post #43 of 65 Old 11-05-2018
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

My 15 foot picnic boat has a sink/ice chest which drains thru-hull below the water line which keeps the melting ice from sloshing around and spilling out into the cockpit or bilge and is a very good design point even on a boat without a cabin and as others mentioned it can be a life saver on a boat with a cabin allowing you to bail or use a hand pump to purge water directly into it and out of the boat.

Scuppers below the water line with a proper venturie cap can greatly speed draining water out of the cockpit and get your boat more quickly back in balance after it takes a wave, etc. And electric bilge pump only works if the battery is still functional which may not be the case if its foaming over from getting salt water in it while the scuppers will work constantly and at times better than many bilge pumps especially if you have any forward motion plus they will keep working even if you are incapacitated.

Serious consideration should be given before defeating the safety features built into a boat. The root cause of this incident is more likely poor maintenance and prep and not poor design. That boat is a very well proven design with thousands out of the water.
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post #44 of 65 Old 11-05-2018
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

Nice boat, I always liked the starwinds, solid designs for lake/trailer sailors.

It sounds to me that your cockpit scupper hosts or through hulls are almost certainly toast. On most trailer boats they are plastic thru hulls. Get a couple stainless steel ones, some 5200, a couple new bits of hose and clamps, done.

The idea that your cockpit isn't going to get wet and it will be fine draining into the bilge is pretty absurd in my opinion (no offense) and frankly dangerous. Why would you have a large open surface draining *into* your boat. Boats are meant to keep water out. Just fix them correctly and then you don't have to worry about what ifs (what if it rains while I am out, what if my cover leaks on the trailer, what if my bilge pump breaks or gets clogged.

Plugging the sink isn't my style since I would again just fix it if it was broken. How are you going to "plug" it? Literally a plug in the drain hose? Stuck in the thru hull? Still got a hole in the boat and no reason your plug won't fail like anything else. Best fix is a seacock you can close unless you need it. About $80 gets you a proper marelon seacok/thru hull one and wouldn't take more than a half hour to install. https://www.fisheriessupply.com/plum...s-and-seacocks

Good luck and happy sailing!
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post #45 of 65 Old 11-05-2018 Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

I appreciate the responses and knowledge here. That is why I signed up here. You're never too old to learn. Kicking ideas around and figuring out why helps me learn and maybe can shed some light on things. If I came off as some know it all, that was never the intention. I stated this was my first sailboat and am looking to get as much info as I can from people that do know.

That being said, I also bring knowledge of my own to the table on a multitude of areas.

The baby on an untested boat sounds crazy extreme. To some people a baby in a pool is crazy. (The couple that came on board are Brits and like the Auzzies I'm friends with have, a different view on what they are willing to do or not do) I understand. I have 2 children and they have been on our other boats their entire life. My other boat is basically a floating living room that can accommodate 13 people and has the ability to pull a skier. I also realize the dichotomy of power boat and sailboat. It's the same with power boat and jet ski. Actually jet ski and anything else on the water, everyone usually hates jet skiers (lol) or paddle boarders and fishing boat guys.

Back to the through hull scenario.

The scuppers aft are pointing down to release under the waterline. If the boat is sitting in water won't they begin to collect water in and down into the bilge? With water taking the path of least resistance I'm thinking the water will flow down into the boat and have a constant amount of water that the bilge pump will need to eradicate? I see the value of aft scuppers and wish they exited the transom. (I'm also not running outside and plugging anything until I know why) I don't want water coming in and having to have to be pumped out. Not sure if my earlier post sounded that way.

The sink as a cooler is a nice idea and I've done that in the past but this is a tiny round bowl sink. It could probably hold 2 twelve ounce cans max. I see it more as a place to hold my keys. If I'm using it to drain anything out below the waterline, the length of hose that can hold water is minimal. Then I need to hand pump it out with a valve. I could just stand up and toss it over the side or have a bucket handy.

The bilge pump is a definite with auto float switch.

I'm planning on trailer sailing it but I can already see the time to set up and tear down is substantial especially to do solo. I may slip it after a season of playing around with it. My reason to get it was to learn how to sail and go places my other boat can't go after gaining experience and knowledge on small protected waters.

Mike

1983 Starwind 19

Planning on getting this boat wet before the season is past me ... and keeping the inside dry !!!


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Last edited by MikePNJ; 11-05-2018 at 09:20 AM.
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

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Originally Posted by MikePNJ View Post
The scuppers aft are pointing down to release under the waterline. If the boat is sitting in water won't they begin to collect water in and down into the bilge? With water taking the path of least resistance I'm thinking the water will flow down into the boat and have a constant amount of water that the bilge pump will need to eradicate? I see the value of aft scuppers and wish they exited the transom. (I'm also not running outside and plugging anything until I know why) I don't want water coming in and having to have to be pumped out. Not sure if my earlier post sounded that way.
The scuppers are a straight hose that goes from the cockpit sole to the boat, they never enter the boat itself. This gives you an idea, except your just go straight down
scupper valve

Which is also why I am almost certain either the through hulls or hoses are cracked/disconnected. The water that is in your boat at the ramp could never have drained where it did *unless* they were cracked/broken. You can test by putting a hose in the bilge and see where the water exits.

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I'm planning on trailer sailing it but I can already see the time to set up and tear down is substantial especially to do solo. I may slip it after a season of playing around with it. My reason to get it was to learn how to sail and go places my other boat can't go after gaining experience and knowledge on small protected waters.
The beauty of having it on a trailer at home is you can knock out these projects easily along with no fees. One thing you might look at is dry storage where you can keep it rigged on the trailer at a marina with a ramp so you just have to hook it up and drop it in the water to go out. A little more time than having it in the water, but you also don't have to worry about the hull getting dirty and/or it sinking!

I always found I was much happier doing a weekend trip with my trailer sailor, go to some new lake, sail watch the sunset and sunrise. It's like camping except a lot more comfortable.
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post #47 of 65 Old 11-05-2018
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

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...The sink as a cooler is a nice idea and I've done that in the past but this is a tiny round bowl sink. It could probably hold 2 twelve ounce cans max. I see it more as a place to hold my keys. If I'm using it to drain anything out below the waterline, the length of hose that can hold water is minimal. Then I need to hand pump it out with a valve. I could just stand up and toss it over the side or have a bucket handy.
Your boat has a cabin, so you won't be able to just stand up and toss it over the side.

You do not need a pump for the sink to drain. The sink is above the waterline, and if the boat is at rest, gravity will push the water in the sink down into the hose until the water level is at the same level as the exterior waterline. If the boat is moving at a good speed, the Bernoulli effect will actually pull the water down a little lower than the waterline. The seacock is a safety to turn off when leaving the boat to guard against hose or clamp failure. Also, sometimes if waves are pounding the boat from the side, a little water could gurgle up into the sink, so closing the valve is useful in those cases.

Just curious - what brand/model of infant life jacket was the baby wearing? Had he/she ever been in a swimming pool before?
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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

The diagram you attached was what I felt it should look like. I guess maybe I would need some type of check valve at the hull.

This is what it looks like.
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scuppers.jpg   through hull aft.jpg  

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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

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Your boat has a cabin, so you won't be able to just stand up and toss it over the side.

You do not need a pump for the sink to drain. The sink is above the waterline, and if the boat is at rest, gravity will push the water in the sink down into the hose until the water level is at the same level as the exterior waterline. If the boat is moving at a good speed, the Bernoulli effect will actually pull the water down a little lower than the waterline. The seacock is a safety to turn off when leaving the boat to guard against hose or clamp failure. Also, sometimes if waves are pounding the boat from the side, a little water could gurgle up into the sink, so closing the valve is useful in those cases.

Just curious - what brand/model of infant life jacket was the baby wearing? Had he/she ever been in a swimming pool before?

Oneil superlight. They are USCG approved for under 30lbs. I also had 2 lifeguards on board, 1 currently certified, the other didn't retest.

I have about 40 lifejackets. Some are different for water skiing, etc. I bring tons of kids on my other boat, also it's a tri-toon on a lake. I've gotten stuck in rain a few times but I don't go out in foul weather with it.

Learning something new every day.

Thanks for the info on the Bernoulli effect. I will be looking into that also.

My cabin is tiny and I'm not that tall but standing up in the cabin I tossed buckets of water out from my shop vac over the side in my driveway.

Mike

1983 Starwind 19

Planning on getting this boat wet before the season is past me ... and keeping the inside dry !!!


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Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today

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The diagram you attached was what I felt it should look like. I guess maybe I would need some type of check valve at the hull.

This is what it looks like.
Yep those just run straight down, but you can see my point about the fact that water inside the boat should never come out of those. You are going to have to climb back there and take a look at the hoses and through hulls. You don't really need a check valve, the cockpit sole will sit high enough off the water that water will never come up, plus since they point down even wave action won't push water up. I have never had an issue and mine point aft.
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